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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#531
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

The Singapore (and rest of Southeast Asia) solution set might work here, but there's no way we have the political will for it. If we won't execute the vast majority of murderers, there's no way we'll do it for people just running a kilo of coke or weed. Not to mention "works" and "worth it" are not quite the same thing.

Singapore can do this because they're a city state without jury trials, a bill of rights, or the Kennedy v. Louisiana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_v._Louisiana) decision. It's doubtful that the Supreme Court would allow a similar policy. If they did then the cost of appeals make this approach too expensive to implement it.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#532
post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#533
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#534

And Oregon’s drug problems have not improved. Last year, the state experienced one of the sharpest rises in overdose deaths in the nation and had one of the highest percentages of adults with a substance-use disorder. Hardly shocking. I would be interested in seeing data -- if it's available -- on how much that uptick is due to people with addictions moving to the state in hopes of reducing the odds of ending up in j…

Three years is a lot of time.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#535
post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

[deleted]

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#536
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alcohol use exerts enormous tax on society which chose to tolerate it for historical adoption reasons. Adding hard drugs is going to exacerbate the situation, and a number of those are worse than alcohol by any metric imaginable.

So then alcohol should be banned? Why the line if only historical?

Historical

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#537
post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

Well said.

Shame is making a comeback in a big way with restorative justice. Hopefully enough of us get there so we can see meaningful change.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"based on the successful policy in Portugal" How are you defining successful? The linked article links to a recent wapo article from last week "Once hailed for decriminalizing drugs, Portugal is now having doubts". I don't know one way or the other, I'm just trying to collect more data points. Didn't Vancouver BC try something similar? (Seems a little odd that this Atlantic article, the Wapo article questioning Portu…

Beyond the headline Portugal is having doubts because they decided to gut funding. Where it was seen as promising or successful, now it's basically decriminalized drug use and no treatment or enforcement. Which kinda sounds like what Oregon is doing now and what Reagan did with mental health care in California.

Could you (or anyone else reading this) define "gut funding" in quantitative terms?

I'm asking because I've noticed newspapers have somehow acquired the ability to imply that spending on this or that program is being cut, when in fact it isn't. Often simply refusing to let a program grow at an exponential rate is supposed to be a "spending cut". And sometimes mere exponential growth is not enough.

To give an example, if one trusts the newspapers of the United Kingdom, the NHS is supposed to have been "underfunded" ever since Cameron became prime minister in 2010. The reality is that expenditures on that system have remained at around 9.7% of GDP until COVID when they rose to 12%, remaining at that level since then. And GDP is a quantity that's growing every year.

If "properly funding" hard drug legalization would require expenditures on rehab programs that steadily grow until they reach a third of all government revenues, that in and of itself makes legalization a horrible policy.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people are killed on the road in accidents caused by elderly folks than drunk drivers. I know this sounds insane, but drunk driving should be no harm no foul.

Elderly folks should be taken off the road as well?

They often are, and there is some (at least in some places in the US) cultural inertia to intervene and get someone to voluntarily surrender their driving privilege (either formally by giving up their license in favor of a State ID or informally by giving up their vehicles) before the state does it for you.

I've been around for those conversations with grandparents on a few occasions now, and many people I know have too.

I don't think its an anomaly, but it is anecdotal

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#540
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, though I suspect most people do this calculus: would I rather want a drug addict to be on the streets or in jail? (Especially if the crime is violent.) Keep in mind that I have no idea how to "fix" this, and it's a very complicated issue, so I'm just trying to spark conversation. If we look at historical examples (e.g. opium dens), it's rarely these societal issues fixed themselves with more lenient social poli…

> it's rarely these societal issues fixed themselves with more lenient social policies (they often, in fact, got worse). Opium was prohibited even after the opium wars. That's not a good example of non-prohibition but instead the knockon effects of worst of both worlds informal, capricious quasi-legality. > The counter-example is Prohibition (which was an abject failure), but maybe this is (at least in part) due to t…

> That's not a good example of non-prohibition

Yep, which is why I used the term "more lenient policies," not necessarily non-prohibition. Opium dens were getting more and more problematic in San Francisco[1] until they were criminalized in the late 19th century.

> I mean, people haven't really stopped doing Cocaine or Meth

I don't think the end goal of prohibition is zero use of said substance, but rather its control as to prevent large-scale societal disruption.

[1] https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Chinatown%27s_Opium_...

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