Earlier quoted context omitted.
You missed the major point of being the exact capitalists that are the reason for charity to be so necessary. That’s white washing greed and self interest. Get to have a better life selfishly then donate the money to be morally better.
No I didn't miss the point. I disagree with it. Looking at other countries that don't have capitalism, everyone is worse off. I don't think capitalism is the reason charity is necessary. I think the world starts default-bad for humans, by default we don't have anywhere close to the living we want, and over the years, many technological advanacements, including capitalism, have slowly made most humans far better off.…
The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
531–540 of 619 posts
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#532Earlier quoted context omitted.
'Possessions and wealth taken' and 'fund the equalizing up-lifting of others' co-occur, but that doesn't mean the latter is justifying the former. People who play the markets know they're taking a risk and willing to gamble on being smarter than their competition, they're consenting to have their money go to someone with better judgement than them and that's what justifies having their wealth taken. The winners of a…
Did SBF take the wealth using better judgement or did he take it using dishonesty and fraud? My impression is that it's the dishonesty and theft that people have a problem with, not just being clever and outwitting people in the speculative gambling game. And when those people get the impression that the EA movement is okay with getting money dishonestly as long as it's given it to a worthy cause, they take issue wit…
To put it in point form, I'd say -SBF had bad judgement and bad morals -SBF's clients had bad judgement and bad luck -Binance had good judgement and good luck, and if the people who make it up do a lot of charity work, they have good morals as well. That doesn't help SBF's clients of course, but I do think they consented to a game where a reasonable person would have known this was a possible outcome. I would think most EA folks would tend to agree with how I've characterized it, but maybe someone more versed in that subculture's overton window can clarify.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#533Maybe this is superficial, but I was put off by the name "effective altruism". By naming it such, it felt like an implicit dig that most altruism is not effective. Like oh your altruism is not that productive, but my altruism, well it's effective altruism. Especially when that notion is pushed by people who overlap with the rationalist subculture, another arrogantly named group. In general I find it concerning when t…
that's a good way of putting it. I kind of ignored a lot of what they said but again, just like the rationalists who pretty much were all of the EA people, they came with biases they refused to admit they had. like for example, if a family member of mine needed money for a cancer treatment that had a 50% chance of working versus giving that money to save the life of someone I don't know on the other side of the plane…
I just want to point out that:
1. Just because this is how most people operate does not mean this is the ethical choice. Slavery was normal at one time remember.
2. You say EA people have biases they refuse to admit to, but your argument is showing that you are exhibiting the bias, namely the bias towards preferring your family member over general human life. Arguably a position that does not prefer one human life over another is less biased, no?
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#534Earlier quoted context omitted.
The same argument means that any luxury that any person indulges in. Let’s say thanksgiving, christmas, craft beer, VR headset, calling their mother, etc. is costing X lives (X is not necessary integer) and so isn’t the rationalist thing to do. “Ah bit they are luxuries, distinct from charity…” Ok then give me the luxury of donating to the local theatre!
Effective alturism vs luxury alturism?
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#535Earlier quoted context omitted.
EA doesn't do that - it's a much smaller concept than utilitarianism. (Which also wouldn't always support that conclusion.)
But it has very noticeably begun falling into the same traps long discovered and recognized by utilitarianism. EA now has a significant contingent that is most focused on very unlikely far future outcomes because they would be incredibly bad for an unimaginably vast number of people if they did occur eg unbounded utility. That's pascal's mugging! The movement is based on the same ideas and values and it's running int…
With all of these examples, and pascal's mugging itself, there is an obvious error: there should be a practical upper bound on the adverse outcome you're concerned about, at which all higher values are effectively the same to you.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#536Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not OP, but I do work in reducing harms of deployed AI systems at a big tech company When most EA/Rationalist folks discuss AI Safety. They’re talking about AGI, a hypothetical construct that we have no way of proving is even possible Now there’s nothing inherently wrong with funding research of that sort. The problem comes is that many EA/Rationalist folks begin downplaying legitimate tangible risks on the horizon (…
They are right. Climate change is absolutely not an existential risk. “In a high-emissions scenario where little is done to curb planet-heating gases, global mortality rates will be raised by 73 deaths per 100,000 people by the end of the century” https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/04/rising-globa...
That's an assessment based on what we know, but there's a lot we don't. For instance, it's possible that climate change could lead to a large scale collapse of food chains that could pose an existential risk to humanity.
It's also plausible that climate change will lead to resource shortages that result in wars between nuclear powers, and the nuclear calamity that follows kills us all.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#537Earlier quoted context omitted.
>most altruism is not effective. Like oh your altruism is not that productive, but my altruism, well it's effective altruism. I unironically think this. In Hungary where I live, if you don't care about these things much but still want to contribute somewhat to society by charity, the first lines of contact will mostly be crooks that feed on goodwill. There will be beggars, organized into groups, charities that don't…
> I don't like the EA people either. Do you actually know any? The ones I know in real life are wonderful people. Intelligent, caring and hard working.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#538Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's better than wasting $10,000 on, e.g. luxuries for yourself I'm honestly not sure. Spending your money back into the economy contributes to a system with a proven track record, part of it goes to taxes, the rest pays for jobs, creates value for the owner, who'll pay some more taxes on their income, and then spend the rest elsewhere, etc. Donating 10k to a charity has many practical flaws, the charity itself isn…
Let us make the example more extreme. Let's make it spending 100 billion on building a supermassive yacht, that you then proceed to sink for your own entertainment. Which is not dissimilar from 10 million people spending $10k each on luxury consumption for themselves. Would you still argue that it still does no harm? You have just squandered 100b worth of society's resources - people's time, physical materials, engin…
Say there was a 100 billion yacht, it still served as a means to redistribute flow of funds to others. Those engineers, material extractors, workers, staff, all that contributed to people being given some of that money.
This goes towards creating an economy, and good economies can sustain countries and lift many people out of poverty, saving many lives.
Creating a demand for people's labor and resources helps with creating an economy.
This isn't money wasted, the money went to many people, it was a way to redistribute the money to others.
So I don't see the harm at all, at least not from a financial standpoint, you could argue about environmental harm though.
Now what about opportunity cost? Sure, maybe that 100 billion could have been used in ways that redistribute it more evenly, more fairly, or to people who needs the money most, or towards an endeavor that has longer term uplifting outcomes, etc, there might be a better use, though it becomes hard to figure out what use is truly better.
The way I see it, there's two dimensions:
- Redistributing money, who gets it? Split amongst how many people?
- Potential for future returns, is the money spent in a way that gives people the means to produce more?
The yacht definitely redistributes money, but maybe you disagree about the distribution of it, who got the money.
Arguably the yacht could bring future returns. Creating a demand for engineers pushed more people into engineering, now more people have the engineering know how, they go on to use that to build other projects, creating an infrastructure that others can then leverage to make other things more efficient and build on top, etc.
Basically, I just don't think it's as black and white as you claim, even in this extreme example.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#539Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did SBF take the wealth using better judgement or did he take it using dishonesty and fraud? My impression is that it's the dishonesty and theft that people have a problem with, not just being clever and outwitting people in the speculative gambling game. And when those people get the impression that the EA movement is okay with getting money dishonestly as long as it's given it to a worthy cause, they take issue wit…
To my admittedly shallow understanding SBF was gambling with his clients' money and lost. I wouldn't say any charitable work he did would justify the theft, but I also have no qualms about Binance crashing his token so he'd be caught in the act. To put it in point form, I'd say -SBF had bad judgement and bad morals -SBF's clients had bad judgement and bad luck -Binance had good judgement and good luck, and if the peo…
> I do think they consented to a game where a reasonable person would have known this was a possible outcome
I think you might be confusing the two different types of clients who were involved here.
My understanding is that SBF initially lost money that had been entrusted to him by investors in his "please gamble with my money and give me the winnings" company (Alameda). I would not call that fraud and I agree that the Alameda investors consented (foolishly) to this use of their money.
The problem is that after SBF lost the money of Alameda clients by doing risky gambles that went wrong, he tried to cover it up by stealing money that had been entrusted to him by clients of his "please hold onto my money for me so I can conveniently trade on your platform" company (FTX).
I don't think the FTX clients consented to SBF's use of their money to do gambling. They put their money on FTX so they could do their own gambling.
While I think FTX clients should have known better than to put money on a crypto exchange for safekeeping, that doesn't change the fact that their money was misappropriated nor does it excuse the fraud.
Re: The good delusion: has effective altruism broken bad?
#540Earlier quoted context omitted.
The politics of your comment completely elude me; I couldn't care less about your view or theirs, have no idea what "effective altruism" is, and learned nothing from your post since it was purely snark and swipes. All I care about is that you broke the HN guidelines. You've been doing that repeatedly (e.g. posting informationless flamebait) on lots of different topics. If you keep doing it, we'll end up having to ban…
[flagged]
Every passionate ideologue thinks that the mods are secretly against them (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). This you're-just-moderating-me-because-you-don't-like-my-opinion perception is a cognitive bias. If you don't believe me, look at the first batch of examples here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870. I could give you a hundred more of those.
The truth is that we're bored, tired, profoundly do not care, and feel exactly the same way about all such comments—the ones you'd consider most wrong and offensive, as well as the ones you'd most passionately agree with. Why? Because they're all mirror images of each other.