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Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

hechingerreport.org

531–540 of 602 posts

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only on the Internet would someone demand a “counterargument” to support the super basic statement “your life experience wasn’t universal amongst poor people”… My argument is not "Poor kids universally have time to do what they want." It's hard for me to believe you are having a good faith conversation, or even read my comments, if this is your opening line. > Fine [0][1][2][3]. Keep in mind this isn’t some “1+1=2”…

> Had you provided links that showed that kids in poverty have less time to study than their rich counterparts by some non-trivial margin, that'd be relevant, but all of your links just point out other places in poor kids lives that they are disadvantaged (less parental supervision, less childhood vocabulary, less childhood free social time, etc.), which are all definitely problems, but I fail to see where college ad…

What are A and B in this scenario? Schools not giving 4th graders recess means they don't have time to study in 10th grade? Parents not reading to their kids means those kids have less time for self directed study?

Again, vague disagreement isn't super helpful. I'd love to have my mind changed to match reality if I'm mistaken in some way.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part don't you understand?

I disagree that getting into those two schools makes such a huge impact.

I said that it can make a huge impact. I'm sure it doesn't always.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/14/1073215412/christian-national... Evangelicals are key backers of the republican party.

Evangelicalism is now a meaningless term with the nyt even claiming it’s largely an identity that does not practice in any form. It’s just a default conservative term for whose who can’t admit they are atheists.

No,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#534
post #506

The greatest source of admissions inequity is childhood socioeconomic status. Dropping the SAT is so obviously not a fix for that I question the competency of the administrators who thought doing so was a good idea. The SAT is probably the most attainable piece of the application process for a poor kid to succeed at. You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. One good smart friend helps if…

I grew up pretty poor, and through a longer story than I want to type here and a confluence of negative voices mostly from my school, was dissuaded from taking the SATs and even considering college. Years after high school I eventually found my way to community college, then to a 4-year, a grad program and so on. It worked out to be a blessing as I graduated without debt from a major university and entered into a rea…

Doing well in college is a great measure of how well you'll do in college, and subsequently, many good schools will accept mid degree transfers of undergraduate students who might not have done well in high school. I don't think it's viable to use that to replace the SAT and other current evaluation metrics, however.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I mean by "test prep" is learning how to game the test You'd also be wrong here. Let me give you a simple example, that might not be immediately apparent to someone who doesn't know the rules of these tests. At one point in time, on some tests, there was a "guessing penalty" for getting a wrong answer. Having a basic understanding of how that works, and different guessing strategies, can increase your score. E…

> that might not be immediately apparent to someone who doesn't know the rules of these tests. 1. Read the rules of the tests. Come on! Does one really need handholding with this? 2. Understanding the probability of success at guessing based on how many of the answers you can eliminate is trivial probability, which goes back to my advice to pay attention in math class. 3. "how long to spend on a question" I'm laughin…

A lot of people naturally approach tests by trying to solve the problems in order.

For some tests, that's not the right approach. Going in order may be a bad idea. Actually trying to immediately solve the problems may be a bad idea. For example, it may be more efficient to check the units of all the multiple-choice answers first, to see if there's only one that's possibly correct.

You could try to figure out the best strategy during the test, but it's far more effective to learn these things before the test.

If you've already done a dozen practice tests, you'll know what kinds of methods there are to quickly eliminate incorrect multiple-choice answers. You'll know, say, that there are fundamentally 8 types of problems, and you'll be able to skim the test and immediately recognize which problems call into which categories.

This is why people who do test prep get higher scores.

That doesn't mean that we should throw out standardized tests, but it is silly to deny that test prep helps (a lot).

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#536
post #125
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A more charitable interpretation is that a student body made up of too much of any one thing is not good. So what would you say is “not good” about a “student body made up of too [many]” Indians? Or Jews? Or Chinese people? Are schools in India or China or Israel inherently worse than those in America because those schools have “too much” of a single race?

> Are schools in India or China or Israel inherently worse than those in America because those schools have “too much” of a single race? Both China and India are countries with a number of different races, some/most of which are represented at the top schools (I imagine all of the large racial groups). I’m not sure about Israel, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were true there as well. That said, the prestigious sch…

No post body was provided.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#537

The greatest source of admissions inequity is childhood socioeconomic status. Dropping the SAT is so obviously not a fix for that I question the competency of the administrators who thought doing so was a good idea. The SAT is probably the most attainable piece of the application process for a poor kid to succeed at. You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. One good smart friend helps if…

> Undoubtedly, but I can't think of anything that can show academic capacity that requires fewer resources.

I'm less inclined than normal to challenge your view because I know how much of an anomaly I am: I was headhunted in HS by several UCs (that I didn't apply to as I focused on CSU because of the costs) despite having pissed off my HS administration who tried to impede my graduation despite holding a 3.2-3.5 GPA but only attending for the exam days. The irony being I'd later go on to get honors and letters of recommendation despite detesting and being a vocal critic of this system during my time in University. And after graduating in 2009 I barely made into my field, health sciences, and because of my strength in physics I was encouraged by my advisors several times to take the MCAT despite having absolutely no interest in medicine.

But, the SAT system is ONLY the best option if only we accept we rely on a model that only have bad options. The amount sheer amount of rote learning needed plus defaulting to deciphering cryptic deductive reasoning with misleading questions as a way to show 'academic capacity' underscores why plagiarism, fraud and just outright mediocrity plagues academia. I wonder if having more written or presentation based examinations, like they do in Cambrdige and Oxford in the UK, would be best. The issue is that it doesn't scale at all and thus cannot be so heavily monetized as it is at present.

As a person with a BSc and going for my 2nd in AI and ML I think the notion of university being used as a gate-keeping mechanism for mos roles needs to be re-evaluated: the Germanic model has proven that engineering doesn't suffer because you don't follow the 'straddle your undergrads with immense amounts of debt in a cram model from 8th grade onward' which ultimately often fails to deliver for many since the economic down-turns puts so many either of their fields entirely or dropping out for all but a select few who get cherry picked as the norm.

In short, the apprentice model works best of all as it gives talented students to shine better than anything else, but because of the current status quo and Paper signalling that University degrees have become (not to mention the admission corruption scandals) this doesn't mean much for the majority of said 'talented' individuals.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You provided a link to a Canadian program. If you don't have other sources then why do you think it happens in the us "The police warn non drug users that a cheap street dose is many times more likely to kill an inexperienced user than a similar dose from a decade ago." This is a conspiracy theory. Evidence? And about your first comment, I'm showing numbers of deaths, you're claiming that some part of that is encoura…

> You provided a link to a Canadian program. If you don't have other sources then why do you think it happens in the us Because the cities literally follow the same public policy. Don't arrest for "simple usage", camping on the streets is allowed, etc. They're getting advice from the same people. But yes, the USA does not that I know, have vending machines for drugs yet, that's still afaik a Canadian thing. In the US…

"Your googling fingers are busted but the ones you use to complain are working?"

It's not my job in a debate to provide evidence for your arguments

"Lol, so sorry the world doesn't end at your borders."

We are discussing American politics

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#539
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know when all of this happened to you, but these days there's no excuse. I just googled for "how to increase my sat score" and the first result was this collegeboard.org page[1] called "How to Improve Your SAT Score." It referred me to the Khan Academy's free SAT practice course[2]. [1] https://blog.collegeboard.org/how-to-improve-your-sat-score [2] https://www.khanacademy.org/sat/confirmed

Let me reiterate: that requires for it occur to a student that you even can increase your SAT score. That remains non-obvious. After all, IQ tests aren't supposed to be something you can prepare for. So why should the SAT be, if it's this kind of supposedly holistic aptitude test? Why isn't "school overall" all the possible preparation you could do? Again, the difficulty isn't primarily in getting the extra resources…

Would that mean that pouring marketing dollars for test prep awareness to low income kids and parents could be an effective intervention?

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#540
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it seem so odd to you that learning how the test works, and learning about strategies that work for the specific test, can increase your score? It seems obvious that this would be the case, and it's pretty clear that this actually has helped many people (myself included) get a better score on subsequent attempts.

Why not just learn the material instead? It's a much more useful skill. And you can be proud that you did it without gaming the test.

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