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Day ahead electricity prices for EU

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Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#531
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the EU wholesale market uses a marginal price, that does not reflect the cost of generation (supply), but the highest cost available at any moment sets the price for everyone (at least as far as i understand). It s a free market but prices are set by a very inflexible rule.

The marginal price of any good is the cost to produce one additional unit of that good. That applies to electricity too. Saying "the highest cost available at any moment sets the price for everyone" is misleading, it's also the lowest marginal price required to satisfy the total load required to supply the market.

i meant that in the EU wholesale market , everyone gets the marginal price. It is not the cost of an additional unit, a mwh of renewables is practically free (if paid-as-bid) but gets paid as natgas (because it gets paid-as-cleared)

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#532
post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really think that the actual crisis is due to a single man choice? Try a small game, put PR and the emotion they push aside: who need a war today? If you are honest you have to admit that the most in need of a war are UK first, USA second. UK need a war outside to avoid a civil war inside. Having essentially lost their "empire" status they are simply unable to live anymore. A war would compact people and if w…

UK lost their "empire" status in early 20th century and seems to be able to live without it. USA is oleophillic in nature but definitely does not need war. So does nobody else. Russia may not like a war but Russia needs resources since it wants to be the only store in neighborhood, and unfortunately, Ukraine does have resources. War was not expected outcome of the initial scare tactic but here we are.

That's is, that's what I do not understand the partisanship reaching a fanatic state to the point of completely distort reality. Yes, UK have lost the "empire" status in the 20th century BUT the Commonwealth is still there. They are still a talassocracy even if their grip on some of the most important colonies (Canada, Australia) is faded. Now they start facing a real threat to them and can't defend them in any way. China overpower Australia to a point UK can't logically even try to defend it. Russia overpower Canada to a very similar point. So far both power have no reasons to go to war, of course, but they can and UK know it very well. USA are the sole former colony very able to defend itself but is also the less keen to serve UK.

However both UK and USA are failed states, their extreme capitalism put too much of their population in poverty and without immigration they simply fall on their own weight.

As before they NEED a war to overthought the table and start over. And they have actually created that, it's not a secret, it's written black on white if only you read their publications from RAND to G8. They use a slightly strange vocabulary but it's clear what they state. They call themselves "the international community" or "the civilized world" but it's clear they just mean their fragmented former colonies. The same have happened in the recent past with the Korea war, as it happened their former colonies start to decide it's time to detach a bit, like SK an Japan themselves https://asiatimes.com/2022/08/japan-korea-defy-us-with-big-r... and even New Zealand https://thediplomat.com/2022/07/new-zealand-will-not-join-th... Australia itself suffering the submarines scam the UK and USA essentially have imposed to them ditching modern but limited French subs to exactly nothing since for a decade at least that's what they'll get (less than nothing since they have payed compensation for the late choice) start to falter undecided witch side to take. Only high treason neoliberal government in the EU keep the USA/UK side against their own Citizens interests.

Some in US and UK have already understood that their war is lost and they menace them to go nuclear in that case, see https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-truss-nuc... and https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11110441/Henry-Kiss... but the rest of the world, the BRICS start to unite knowing that it's freedom or death for them. They have all tested the "freedom" neoliberal nazi means, to a point in eastern Europe many would welcome back Soviet Union...

The above are NOT political or ideological positions but simply facts anyone observing with honesty no matter the personal political position can't avoid to see.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#533
post #483
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thermal mass doesn't help if it's hot for a days. Then it just keeps the heat. In winter, the house works great to retain heat. But as I learned during construction when I had to prepare for laying flooring, it took a while to heat it up.

A few ressources on how to use thermal mass and diurnal/nocturnal temperature gap to handle summer heat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_mass#Thermal_mass_for_... https://www.yourhome.gov.au/passive-design/thermal-mass

My personal dream is house built into a slope. So earth around half-ish of the house can be used as thermal mass all year round.

Currently roof becomes heated. And there's crapton of insulation in the attic. Which heats up during the day in sunlight.. And then takes it's sweet time to cool down at night. And, if heat lasts several days, it doesn't even cool down by the morning.

Another solution would be a full-sized attic like in old houses. Now we didn't even bother to install crawl doors, because there's next-to-no space. Insulation takes up whatever is there. But large attic would be inefficient in winter. Unless we'd double-insulate it to keep heat in living quarters. But I wonder how long it'd take to recoup €€€€ and kwh/co2/etc spent for extra building materials/work wit lower energy usage.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#534
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More insulation is double edge sword. I moved into a super-energy-efficient house here in north/east Europe. Heating in winter is damn cheap. But retention works in summer too… so I had to get air conditioner :( And electrical ventilation is a must all year round to get air fresh, keep module at bay ant not loose energy living with open windows. Energy saving in bottom line will be abysmal :(

The key is not to let the heat in in the first place during the summer. Thick external shutters do wonders in that regard. Well insulated windows alone will let in the heat (in form of light) but not out again (IR). I really wonder why these shutters are not way more common than they are.

Yes. But those shutters are pretty expensive + extra moving thing to maintain.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#535
post #478
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as people won't even try to install a solar concentrator while bitching about rising prices, I won't take any of them seriously. Such a simple design, can be used for at least heating water for 3-6 months. But nah. Same for which the roofs. You don't have a white/silver roof on your house? Fuck you. On that note, you like cruise ships? Also fuck you.

I have a new all-electric home and a p.v. system with lithium storage, ALSO living in a sunny place (French Alps of the south, in altitude) I'm FAR from being autonomous. But really far. If I want to go fully autonomous I have to spend in batteries like the same price of a Lamborghini, for zero re-sale value, to be demolished in 10 years in theory, in practice more likely 7-8 years if I use them with significant dail…

>If I want to go fully autonomous I have to spend in batteries like the same price of a Lamborghini

how? considering 75 kwh tesla is ~50K. Do you really need more than 75 kwh of storage?

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#536
post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly curious about a thing, that might sound not so in-topic, but that is, actually: HN is supposed to be a technically sound community, however when someone post about some trendy neoliberals-related topics a certain part of the community instead of remain technical start to be partisan, sometimes at fanatic levels. The in-topic part is for instance about p.v.: if you think a global electricity grid as a sol…

you don't need global. just connecting the eu together has significantly strengthened their grid.

EU countries are actually interconnected, but when it's night in Berlin it's also night in Paris, Lisbon, Madrid, Rome, ... so all EU p.v. do not produce, while the whole EU keep consuming.

So no, if you want a world that run on p.v. you need a global grid to harvest enough energy AND I doubt even if such monster can be done in a snap and work flawlessly that we can even harvest enough power at ground level.

Harvesting from orbit beside the fact it's so far mere theory have various major issues, not just in environmental terms (a catastrophic impact, probably higher than a nuclear war on ground) but in mere technical terms: without the atmospheric shield anything in orbit at a certain scale have a very short life span. Substitute them demand a very big quantity of fossils and an industrial capacity we do not have in the entire world so far.

Nuclear fusion on ground is the most promising tech but so far it's far from being ready, seen the actual status PERHAPS we can have it at an initial general availability around 2060-2070. Before we have just fission. Now if we invest in fission witch is far from cheap and simple to build on scale it's a nonsense also investing in p.v. witch is far less expensive but for what? Once a reactor is started you consume uranium anyway, producing energy from steam or not. p.v. might play a role in averaging the load, theoretically, that means "please all loads that can be run just when the Sun shine do run them only with it", but doing so for now is pure theory and at a nationwide grid scale it's already almost impossible. Beside that we have an enormous issue: climate change. Did you know how vulnerable are infra on ground?

We try the small reactor path NOT because they are safe (it's the opposite), not because they are cheap (again, it's the opposite), but because they are flexible: instead of depend on LARGE infra we can deploy small one so reducing the impact of any outage.

In the nearer future we have the nightmarish problem of replace oil and gas sparing them for the use we do not know how to do without them. In the mid-term future we need resiliency and nuclear fission, another nightmare. In a mid-long term we hope for fusion, but we do not really know and we anyway need to essentially rebuild the changing world coping with sea levels rises, floods, landslides etc that push people in altitude locally and world-scale migration in general. That's the actual sore reality for what we can see directly and read from so many sources with contrasting interest to being able to call them very likely true.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#537
post #470
post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly curious about a thing, that might sound not so in-topic, but that is, actually: HN is supposed to be a technically sound community, however when someone post about some trendy neoliberals-related topics a certain part of the community instead of remain technical start to be partisan, sometimes at fanatic levels. The in-topic part is for instance about p.v.: if you think a global electricity grid as a sol…

This is why, although I prefer a global power grid, I suspect storage is going to be the main solution to energy being wanted in a different time or place than it is generated.

If we can have it of course, it's a godsend. BUT we can't. I have a small lithium storage, I see how fast it get depleted and how quick performance degrade. In 8-9 years I expect it will be just rubbish. If I compute how it's produced, how much energy, pollution, it need to exists brand new in my home, and how so far we can't recycle...

We have some effective storage, like pumped hydro, yes, but we have them where we can, we do not build mountains so far, for instance. Compressed air storage prove to be possible at a certain scale, but so far is just a promise with some experiments and honestly I doubt the actual push is ONLY for environmental and economical reasons. I think we start suspecting that oil is at the end, and we have just 2 decades or so remaining so we need to rush finding alternatives...

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#538
post #535
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a new all-electric home and a p.v. system with lithium storage, ALSO living in a sunny place (French Alps of the south, in altitude) I'm FAR from being autonomous. But really far. If I want to go fully autonomous I have to spend in batteries like the same price of a Lamborghini, for zero re-sale value, to be demolished in 10 years in theory, in practice more likely 7-8 years if I use them with significant dail…

>If I want to go fully autonomous I have to spend in batteries like the same price of a Lamborghini how? considering 75 kwh tesla is ~50K. Do you really need more than 75 kwh of storage?

To be autonomous? Seeing the actual meteo I need something like 40kWp p.v., 10k liter of hot water as a reserve, subdivided in 500l batch to being able to re-heat only some reservoirs depending on the meteo, around 400kWh storage since to make it last I should not normally go more than 85-90% SOC every day.

Did you ever try the real autonomy game? Just consider that in winter you can count on few hours of Sun let's say one day yes and one no, if you live like me in France south. In those hours you need to run anything together. You have postponed dishwasher, washing machine, you have to cook, heat both sanitary water and reserve for night and early morning home heating, recharge the batteries, car's battery included etc.

For instance to heat enough water to heat my home a single day (~2000 liters at 60℃ to get in the morning at 32-33℃) I need a powerful heat pump, let's say 3kW absorbed. I need ~2kW per home appliance (dishwasher, washing machine, coffee maker, induction for a single pot etc) I might have good enough Sun from 9.30 in the morning to let's say 14.30. Some appliance are very quick (like a coffee maker) but some are not (the dishwasher heat water few times for 8-10' a time over 90' timeframe, the washing machine normally only one time) recharging a massive battery demand both a certain amount of sustained power to avoid unbalanced cells, demand little power for a not that short time to balance them at the end of the charge etc. Essentially I need around 25kW for around 4+ hours per day. Being able to count casually passing clouds in the meantime. Not only. Such system need to be constantly managed to lower quickly and mount quickly the load following p.v. production. Some appliance can potentially and practically (for instance modern heat-pump water heaters are already made to be controlled by some modbus/mqtt automation), some can just potentially (nothing on sale do that, but it's possible), some can't.

Really try the game, including home heating in winter, NOT counting on the grid even for small loads.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany’s obsession with solar and wind is absolutely baffling. It takes very little to know that Germany simply does not have the conditions for large scale solar. Yet it was pushed so heavily in lieu of nuclear power. Absurd.

Nuclear isn't going well for France right now. And most of the EU uran comes from Russia

> Nuclear isn't going well for France right now. And most of the EU uran comes from Russia

Even not doing well it's better then Germany's wind and solar - it's rare to see Germany electricity polluting going below 4x France - not to mention coal whose transportation is also affected by low water levels

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#540
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We generate a lot of this electricity by burning gas which we have to buy from the market where prices are set relative to global supply and demand. This is why we originally stopped mining coal - because Russian gas was so cheap at the time that it was a no-brainer. What could possibly go wrong?

UK stopped mining coal mostly in the 1980s when Russia was still the Soviet Union. The cause was not Russian gas which isn't a direct substitute for coal anyway and especially not back then, but rather that the NUM destroyed the domestic coal industry, which became totally uncompetitive relative to more or less any foreign producers. It wasn't Russia specifically, it was that UK mining became dysfunctional and unreli…

> but rather that the NUM destroyed the domestic coal industry, which became totally uncompetitive relative to more or less any foreign producers. It wasn't Russia specifically, it was that UK mining became dysfunctional and unreliable.

If you think miners should not be fairly compensated for their work you're free to go work as one for one of those foreign producers that less "dysfunctional" and more "reliable"

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