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What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

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Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#531
This is Alina Chan, one of the co-authors of Viral: The Search for the Origin of Covid-19.

I’m going to answer some of the questions that have come up in the comments.

1. Are Chan and Ridley selling a book?

Yes, the updated paperback comes out in the US next week: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/viral-matt-ridleyalin...

The updated epilogue now discusses three significant new developments since the publication of the hardback that are being hotly debated in the comments here. The first was the discovery of a virus in a bat in Laos that is slightly more similar to SARS-CoV-2 than the virus studied at the Wuhan Institute of Virology; but both are still not the progenitor of the pandemic. The second is detailed information about how prominent western virologists, who had privately thought the virus was likely manipulated in a laboratory, began to instead tell the public that no lab-based scenario was plausible. The third is a trio of conflicting studies about whether the Huanan seafood market was the site of a natural spillover of the virus from animals to people or just the site of a human superspreader event in December 2019.

As with the hardcover, half of our earnings from the book have gone/will go to charity.

2. Does the available evidence lean towards a market origin?

Some experts have asserted that there is dispositive evidence that the virus jumped from animals to people at the Wuhan Huanan market. However, their analysis failed to take into account the realities in the early days of the pandemic. Without access to the methodology and actual data collected by investigators in Wuhan, their interpretation unfortunately falls prey to ascertainment bias. Please see this thread for details: https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1499794942012579843

At the moment, US intelligence, the WHO SAGO advisory group, and many top virologists and experts find both natural and lab origin hypotheses plausible and deserving of investigation. The evidence does not lean so strongly towards one hypothesis or the other that we can assume one as the default truth.

I personally think the available evidence points towards a lab origin but would not go as far as to say that there is dispositive evidence of it. Please see these 2 threads: https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1524394197738049537 https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1539745736807616513

3. Can scientists manipulate and genetically engineer naturally found viruses without leaving a trace? In other words, can the genome of the virus tell us its recent history?

We describe the seamless genetic engineering capabilities developed in the years leading up to the pandemic in VIRAL. Due to advanced technologies, it is no longer always possible to use the genome of a virus to distinguish between a natural pathogen vs one that has spent time in a laboratory. Even top coronavirologists, including Ralph Baric who collaborated with the Wuhan scientists, have said that the only way to know is to look at the Wuhan lab records. You can also read my twitter thread: https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1493733086089121794

Even the presence of the furin cleavage site insertion that is unique to the pandemic virus and is indeed what makes it a highly infectious pandemic virus is not “dispositive evidence” of either a natural or lab origin. Please see our peer-reviewed analysis here: https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/39/1/msab327/6426085

4. Why does the lab leak hypothesis encompass so many different scenarios by which research activities could lead to the emergence of the pandemic virus?

A natural spillover hypothesis also encompasses several different scenarios, e.g., bat direct transmission to people in natural habitats, bat to people in markets, bat to farmed animals or wildlife to people in nature, at farms or market, etc.

This doesn’t mean that a natural or lab origin are insinuations. It just means we are lacking so much key evidence that it’s not possible to pin down an exact mechanism by which the virus emerged in the Wuhan human population.

5. Does finding close relatives of the pandemic virus in bats, e.g., in Laos, mean that its origin is natural?

No, because viruses that escape from labs were also ultimately derived from nature and we know that scientists in Wuhan had been collecting viruses from across 8 countries (China and SE Asia) where the closest relatives to the pandemic virus have been found. Please see the graphic in this tweet: https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1522117270612451335

6. Is there anything to do about finding the origin of Covid-19 now? Isn’t it a dead end? And is that why interest is waning?

There is plenty to do to investigate the origin of Covid-19 using sources and data that exist outside of China. Please see a recent peer-reviewed letter in PNAS: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2202769119

And my thread on it: https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1527381169729425410

It is very surprising to me that these feasible routes of inquiry have not been explored more than 2 years into the pandemic.

7. Have infected animals on sale at the Huanan market been found? Was there any evidence that SARS-like viruses were circulating in the Wuhan animal trading community before the emergence of Covid-19?

No. I recommend reading my medium post for more details: https://ayjchan.medium.com/a-response-to-the-origins-of-sars...

8. Regardless of the origin of Covid-19, shouldn’t the focus be on making sure there is more oversight and regulation of current and future pathogen research?

I agree and wish that we didn’t need to prove the origin of this pandemic to motivate scientific leaders to better regulate risky pathogen work. I have been dedicating efforts to this cause since last year and hope to be able to share some exciting news later this year.

Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#532
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't eliminate the possibility that it was a natural virus which had been collected and subsequently escaped due to bad lab technique but the former is too attractive a conspiracy theory to let go.. For some reason most discussions claiming that the lab leak hypothesis is a conspiracy theory focus 90% of their effort arguing against being a bioengineered weapon and little time arguing against the actual str…

What I will tell you is a thing that I have read, and I hold close: Forgive one another, and you will be forgiven. In order to forgive, we must have the truth. Without it, we are in a fog of blind judgement and accusation. Clarity of the source of this misfortune allows us to forgive. I cannot say that I hold the full pantheon of the origin of these words to be true, but the four books that imparted this teaching to…

What books are you cryptically referring about?

The USA just launched a major assault on the human rights of 55% of its population (women and homosexuals), after a yearlong assault on the foundation of our democratic government, all under the guise of four books of "mercy, justice, and hope".

Forgiveness is not on the political table.

Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#533
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source please? Everything I've read about latest Omicrons suggests that they are more transmissible, more likely to evade immunity, and substantially _less_ severe in terms of hospitalization and deaths. By and large, this is what you'd expect to happen at the end of a pandemic, regardless of our response.

You admit it yourself, I will quote you: "they are more transmissible, more likely to evade immunity" Intrinsic severity of the virus doesn't change the fact it is the most transmissible virus we have ever seen in the world. Even if it is intrinsically less severe than previous variants, because we are allowing it to spread to EVERYONE in the world we are seeing a much worse impact. Did you miss that in the US alone…

With, not from. That distinction is still barely ever made.

Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#534
post #522
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not to be glib, but what would be a legitimate scientific interest in discovering the truth? Meaning, someone who didn’t walk in with a bias and look around the room for things that support said bias. This debate is packed with armchair experts who seem to have a larger interest in the politics than the science. >If it was a lab leak, "Oops." … Oops?! >Or, in other words, what would we do differently if it were a la…

> we sure seem to put a lot of effort into stopping “human-origin” fires Do we?

After they start, but we are terrible at pretty much every type of prevention.

See: built to burn

Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, we literally just need to mandate N95 masks in public settings and get the effective R value down near 1 again. But as soon as people take off masks, it starts spreading again. It's also getting less politically viable when ~70% of Americans have had covid (the CDC estimated 60% in late April).

> It's also getting less politically viable when ~70% of Americans have had covid (the CDC estimated 60% in late April) This means nothing. The virus reinfects people with existing immunity. For example Senator Wicker from MS is on his _third_ infection: https://www.magnoliastatelive.com/2022/06/13/senator-roger-w... Two of those infections have been in the last four months alone! We have to use NPIs like masking to…

> He said in February that he is fully vaccinated against the virus.

It's looking more and more likely that this is why most people are getting reinfected. Last month OAS made the news, just not by name: https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/328102

> Vaccines against the coronavirus may impair the body’s ability to produce a key type of antibody, thus potentially limiting the immune system’s defenses against mutated strains of the virus, a new study suggests.

> The study draws upon data collected during Moderna’s randomized control trial for its mRNA SARS-CoV-2 vaccine, from July 2020 through March 2021.

Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#536
post #518
post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment you are responding to, talks about alleged malfeasance, and morally bankrupt acts. Your response is, oh well? In terms of spillover, there is zero guarantee it would happen naturally. For any virus, it could, it may, and for some it has. But for any specific virus, it is absolutely not guaranteed. And purposefully training for human compatibility in a lab, clearly makes that maybe, a certainty, and if ins…

No, my response was not "Oh well." It was "And if we did all of that, how much would it decrease our future risk of zoonotic spillover?"

And if we banned thalidomide, how much would that help pregnant women with morning sickness? The fact that you're trying to prevent one kind of harm (morning sickness, natural-origin pandemics) doesn't excuse causing unlimited amounts of a different kind of harm (birth defects, research-origin pandemics).

The non-absurd version of this argument is that risky virological research will provide a public benefit offsetting the possible harm. None of its advocates seem able to articulate significant examples of that benefit yet, though, and even a small probability of millions of deaths is quite a lot of harm.

Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#537

This is Alina Chan, one of the co-authors of Viral: The Search for the Origin of Covid-19. I’m going to answer some of the questions that have come up in the comments. 1. Are Chan and Ridley selling a book? Yes, the updated paperback comes out in the US next week: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/viral-matt-ridleyalin... The updated epilogue now discusses three significant new developments since the publication…

Thank you for posting.

Regarding your answer to 8, how important is gain of function research in the virology eco-system, is there sufficient reason amongst the powers that be within the discipline (that is, well-known researchers, leaders of departments or labs, funders and program managers, etc) to be wary of a funding cut for this research that they might be biased in dismissing the idea of a lab leak?

My analogy is in particle physics, the idea of supersymmetry is incredibly popular amongst the super start researchers, heads of parts of CERN, funding agencies, etc, that very few in the field are willing to admit the lack of evidence for supersymmetry at the LHC is in fact a crisis for the field after how many billions have been spent on the supercollider. My question is, is gain of function that important or popular in the field of virology? Why can't they just admit it's dangerous and chuck it, will enough of them suffer if they were to do so?

Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#538
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one competent has debated that masks help.

> “Seriously people - STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus“ - Jerome Adams, former US Surgeon General, M.D.

No post body was provided.

Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#539

This is Alina Chan, one of the co-authors of Viral: The Search for the Origin of Covid-19. I’m going to answer some of the questions that have come up in the comments. 1. Are Chan and Ridley selling a book? Yes, the updated paperback comes out in the US next week: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/viral-matt-ridleyalin... The updated epilogue now discusses three significant new developments since the publication…

Thank you for posting. Regarding your answer to 8, how important is gain of function research in the virology eco-system, is there sufficient reason amongst the powers that be within the discipline (that is, well-known researchers, leaders of departments or labs, funders and program managers, etc) to be wary of a funding cut for this research that they might be biased in dismissing the idea of a lab leak? My analogy…

The vast majority of virologists are not working on gain-of-function research or with potential pandemic pathogens, but this type of research has some very influential backers who control significant sources of funding in virology and infectious diseases. This makes it very awkward and professionally risky for virologists to say that the top leaders in their field advocated for research that might have caused this pandemic and taken millions of lives globally.

National Science Advisory Board for Biosecurity (NSABB) has been reconvened this year to review US government policies on dual use research of concern (DURC) and research with enhanced potential pandemic pathogens (ePPP/P3CO). Their public meeting is available here: https://videocast.nih.gov/watch=44823 Please also see my thread on it: https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1499035660627419139

There is another public engagement session next week. Details here: https://osp.od.nih.gov/event/virtual-stakeholder-engagement-...

Based on these sessions and the history of the NSABB, I'm not confident that they will recommend measures to make this type of research more transparent or even safer.

Re: What happened to the lab-leak hypothesis?

#540
post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Seriously people - STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus“ - Jerome Adams, former US Surgeon General, M.D.

Quoted post unavailable.

He’s a board-certified medical doctor. Are you implying the board does a bad job at protecting that licensure?
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