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Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

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Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#531

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

xvector wrote: post #342
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #301

Some people are extremely sensitive to the issue of the remote work, like it is some kind of inalienable right, and any (perceived) threat to it makes them want to grab a pitchfork and proteat. I don't get it. Things are simple. The employer sets the terms, where you work and how the work is paid. The employee either accepts the terms or walks away. Sometimes the sides engage in negotiations, where the side with more…

Because we would all like companies to treat us like adults and let us work from home. Our company has done just fine with WFH - amazingly, even - but they want us back in the office because they fundamentally don't trust us.

Many adults take pride at working several remote jobs simultaneously, slacking off and faking productivity at every one of them, check news from a few months ago.

Doing it from the office is far more difficult.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#532

Post by maratc »

thiht wrote: post #501
jstx1 wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The expense of others is a point that works both ways. You could equally say that someone who insists on being remote because it's better for their family life is preventing/slowing down the return to office, and that's at the expense of people who prefer to be in the office. But I wouldn't put it that way because I don't think it makes for a productive conversation - office or remote, people like what they like and…

It doesn’t really work both ways though. Remote fans don’t force everyone to be remote.

Remote fans force everyone to use tools to accommodate their remoteness.

We used to have a stand-up meeting each morning at a time "when everyopne's arrived" and we used to have a whiteboard on the wall with the most current tasks. None of this can work with even one remote worker, so it's gone to scheduled Zooms, online task managers, and endless Slack messages.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#533

Post by askonomm »

justinclift wrote: post #529
malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

Alternatively, some of us (well, me at least) view "in the office" work as a way to help achieve work/personal-life separation. Saying this after many, many years of remote working, where the boundaries between work and personal life blurred so far they became practically indistinguishable. (yay 24/7 "DevOps" culture :/)

And you can't achieve that with a co-working place? That's what I do. But I get to live in any city or country I want while earning the salary of any city/country I want.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#534

Post by hurrrr »

justinclift wrote: post #529
malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

Alternatively, some of us (well, me at least) view "in the office" work as a way to help achieve work/personal-life separation. Saying this after many, many years of remote working, where the boundaries between work and personal life blurred so far they became practically indistinguishable. (yay 24/7 "DevOps" culture :/)

Remote work != Work from home

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#535

Post by coffeeblack »

justinclift wrote: post #529
malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

Alternatively, some of us (well, me at least) view "in the office" work as a way to help achieve work/personal-life separation. Saying this after many, many years of remote working, where the boundaries between work and personal life blurred so far they became practically indistinguishable. (yay 24/7 "DevOps" culture :/)

I close my work laptop and that’s it for the day. Simple.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#536

Post by Closi »

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives.

Warning: Hot Take.

I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work lives and struggle to form meaningful friendships/relationships with colleagues.

I genuinely enjoy interactions with my colleagues during a work day, and wouldn't want to replace that with staring at a screen for 7.5 hours of my day or only talking to them via Slack. I have a great social group outside of work, but that doesn't diminish the value of enjoying the company of people I work with too.

Sure, it might technically be more productive if I just locked myself in a room and worked intensely on my own for my whole career and only communicated through a webcam, but that doesn't seem particularly enjoyable to me personally.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#537

Post by LunaSea »

np- wrote: post #479
zo1 wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Remote also requires a lot of rethinking of team dynamics, work allocation and just plain old making sure stuff is done. Make no mistake, WFH may be arguably better and more pleasant from the employee perspective, but it makes projects more difficult for the rest of the…

> Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Ad an IC, I would have potentially believed this if the past two years where everyone was working from home wasn’t anything but unbridled success for the tech industry. Companies literally can’t hire us fast enough right now, and yet there are really still some manage…

> Companies literally can’t hire us fast enough right now

This always been the case.

> Are managers supposed to be like daycare supervisors of children or something?

Sometimes, yes. Not every adult behaves like a responsible adult.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#538

Post by seydor »

Right now people are living a honeymoon moment for remote work , because it's not just remote, it's asyncrhonous. But as management is coming to terms with the reality of permanent remote, they will start using virtual tools that allow them to have a synchronous overview of what is happening. Something like working in second life or whatever zuck's Sims will look like. That shift to synchronous is going to make remote slighty more unpleasant (but still preferable)

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#539

Post by justinclift »

askonomm wrote: post #533
justinclift wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, some of us (well, me at least) view "in the office" work as a way to help achieve work/personal-life separation. Saying this after many, many years of remote working, where the boundaries between work and personal life blurred so far they became practically indistinguishable. (yay 24/7 "DevOps" culture :/)

And you can't achieve that with a co-working place? That's what I do. But I get to live in any city or country I want while earning the salary of any city/country I want.

Sure, co-working places can achieve that too. But if you're living in the same city as a company office, then might as well use that. :)

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#540

Post by aaron695 »

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

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