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Tax the Land

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531–540 of 613 posts

Re: Tax the Land

#531
post #354

I busted my ass over many years to make my (nominally) single family home lot into an under the radar industrial site doing industrial things. I'd do a lot of fucked up things to prevent that from being taxed into oblivion.

What?

I have a side business, being run out of my home. This is the "mixed use development" that is fetishized by the people who want to tax me out of my home. I will do a lot of fucked up things to protect that income stream if it comes down to it. I can't "just move" because my business and processes are highly refined for my location. It would take me a long time to make a new operation equally efficient. And I would lose my network.

Re: Tax the Land

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? If other people didn't exist then there is nothing to disallow. We are talking about how people will go to meetings to try to veto building proposals.

I am not sure I understand. In your view, if I live in the middle of nowhere, with no people around me, then I don't have the right to disallow people into my home because nobody is coming? How is it different from me living in the center of NYC and not allowing people into my home, the result is the same - people are not coming into my home, are they?

In your middle of nowhere example, you didn't disallow anyone anything.

This is really such a silly and pointless thread.

Re: Tax the Land

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America’s housing supply will grow. A policy that it grows only by sprawl is a policy of cruelty to everyone today and in the future who thrives best in an urban environment and isn’t super-rich. Urban environments can’t be stamped onto cornfields; they only occur when sparser environments become expensive. I don’t think there’s a right to live in any arbitrary expensive town. I do think there’s a right to have the e…

> so that urbanism is not impossible to access. Urbanism in a desirable location is expensive, everywhere in the world. It’s an inescapable problem of scale. You’re free to live like a sardine in a dense city, but it will be expensive. You cannot avoid that.

[deleted]

Re: Tax the Land

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure I understand. In your view, if I live in the middle of nowhere, with no people around me, then I don't have the right to disallow people into my home because nobody is coming? How is it different from me living in the center of NYC and not allowing people into my home, the result is the same - people are not coming into my home, are they?

In your middle of nowhere example, you didn't disallow anyone anything. This is really such a silly and pointless thread.

No post body was provided.

Re: Tax the Land

#535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you say is interesting and probably true, but you did not address OP's specific point at all.

The OP's specific point was based on a misunderstanding: that being unable to pay the land value tax would mean they would have to move to a different city because the cost of living in their original city would be too high. This might be a reasonable concern during a transition to a land value tax system, but once the land value tax has been in place long enough to see more efficient use of land actually happening,…

I'm sure you're right about me misunderstanding something, but one thing I want to clarify is that while I may not be priced out of the city, I may be priced out of my home (or similar homes).

For instance, say I want to have a small patch of grass for my dog to run around, and moved to my area so that I could have that. As the value of my land grows, you're definitely right that I could sell it to a developer and then move into a more affordable apartment in a multi-tenant building. For humans, though, housing isn't fungible: the home that I grew my family in, the availability of that patch of grass for my dog, and the privacy I enjoyed were all things that cannot be replaced by more dense housing. While the cost of any home is stabilized (which is why it benefits newcomers), the cost of equivalent homes is not (which is why it works against existing residents).

To be clear, I'm not saying that it's wrong to prioritize density. I'm only trying to point out that any policy is going to benefit one group to the detriment of another group; taxation to incentivize more efficient land use is doing so at the expense of those who want to stay in the homes they've lived in.

Restrictive zoning and rent/tax controls benefit incumbent residents at the expense of newcomers, which is widely recognized. Land value taxes improve the efficiency of land use to benefit newcomers at the expense of incumbent residents.

To reiterate, I think land value tax is a good tool for what it aims to accomplish. The main point of my post, though, is that there are legitimate reasons for existing residents to oppose it (e.g. being priced out of their existing home) which most discussions on the matter tend to skip over.

Re: Tax the Land

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i disagree that we should make landowners "whole" in some sense, as they went into their investment knowing that the value of their investment could go down. it's not up to the rest of us to bail out wealthy landowners in that way, which creates a perverse incentive to seek government bailout for any and all risk-taking. enact the tax gradually, say over 5 years, and the property market will adjust accordingly.

I think when we change the laws, we should compensate those who lose out from the change. By giving people the assurance that the laws will either remain the same, or they will be compensated if a change in the law incurs for them losses in their investment, people will be encouraged to invest more of their time and money in endeavors in our society. Regulatory/institutional stability is a related concept and widely…

no, investors need no additional incentive to invest. they squarely chose to take the risk, and will do so regardless of boondoggles like this, because they have no better alternative (i.e., opportunity cost impels them). it's the same fallacious argument used to keep progressive taxes at bay (oh noes, the rich people will leave america for... ???). let them fail. it's not a social problem in the slightest. the social safety net should cushion those at the bottom, certainly not those at the top, or in most cases, not even those in the middle.

certainly it means more political opposition in the form of money, but not in votes, which is the more pertinent metric.

Re: Tax the Land

#537
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that "{place} is not good because of too many people" happens at different numbers for different people. Some people think that YV already has too many people while others would be happy with 1M people. That said, it's not true that every place can remain good with an arbitrarily large number of people. More to the point, it's not true that every {good} place can remain good with as many people who would like to…

People have different preferences, and different kinds of places are strengthened or weakened by different kinds of development. A pastoral scene is strengthened by pristine nature. An urban scene is strengthened by people and culture. However: a) Permitting systems are biased towards preferences for lower intensity; it is asymmetrically easier to block buildings than to force them through. b) People who would prefer…

> An urban scene is strengthened by people and culture.

Not so fast. Rome wasn't strengthened by the Visigoths.

More to your argument, while London is arguably unchanged by the addition of 1k or even 10k people, it is changed by the addition of 100M or even 10M. Maybe it's still good, but by a different definition.

Forward reference: adding 10M people to London will necessarily destroy many of the "iconic neighborhoods" you're so fond of below.

> Even in those places that are crying out to be more urban, like the vacant lots within or the slightly lower intensity suburbs

There's a huge difference between a vacant lot in Manhattan and the burbs, which aren't "slightly lower intensity".

> the cores of our thriving cities

Our thriving cities where?

> The iconic neighborhoods, vistas, differences the character of the built environments of different places mostly comes down to how much is left, of which eras, prior to the disastrous suburban mania we’re stuck with today.

There's a typo in the above that I can't error-correct.

That said, the suburbs didn't cause urban decay. As to the vistas, you're only counting urban vistas, and nothing that has happened in the suburbs has affected the NYC skyline.

I get that you want to live in an "iconic neighborhood", whatever that means, but the other residents of those neighborhoods get to vote too, and many of them have decided "the hell with that." More to the point, what happens in suburbs has nothing to do with how those neighborhoods have fared over time.

Re: Tax the Land

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America’s housing supply will grow. A policy that it grows only by sprawl is a policy of cruelty to everyone today and in the future who thrives best in an urban environment and isn’t super-rich. Urban environments can’t be stamped onto cornfields; they only occur when sparser environments become expensive. I don’t think there’s a right to live in any arbitrary expensive town. I do think there’s a right to have the e…

> so that urbanism is not impossible to access. Urbanism in a desirable location is expensive, everywhere in the world. It’s an inescapable problem of scale. You’re free to live like a sardine in a dense city, but it will be expensive. You cannot avoid that.

Most of the world is not rich enough to live as sparsely as we do. The suburbs are a miracle of prosperity and technology - a car for every adult, the energy to run it, the infrastructure to drive it on. Most human settlements in the world are walkable because they have to be.

Actually it is because car centric design was associated with wealth and status that the “backwards” old ways became prohibited. This inversion now, where walkable environments seem to be luxurious, is a legacy of that prohibition more than anything else.

Re: Tax the Land

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need a house after you die. Perhaps these are just my European sensibilities talking, but a house is not a hamburger, that you consume and then discard when you're done with it. It is your home , and your children's, and possibly their children's too. It's part of the link to your community, your memories, your history. Not a market good like any other, measured only in dollars. You despair why communitie…

here they call that "pulling up the ladder"; you are missing the sentiment -- one side sees it as "leaving my family a secure home" and the other sees it as "tax dodging generational wealth transfer"

The term "pulling up the ladder" has always been interesting to me, since even though there's a continuous tradeoff between the priorities of incumbents and newcomers (in any domain), it tends to be cast in very concrete and black-and-white terms in any debate where it's used (at least as far as I've seen).

For instance, single-family homeowners voting to keep their areas single-family zoned are cast as "pulling up the ladder". This is fair: incumbents are trying to keep newcomers from changing the things they prioritize.

One could make a similar case for public lands, though: why is it fair that residents of a city should allocate huge tracts of land for public parks, when that land could otherwise be used to build dense housing and make the city more affordable for newcomers? It feels strange, but this seems like the same tradeoff: incumbents enjoy the presence of parks, so they prioritize them over the potential needs of newcomers (more affordable housing).

Or at a more global level, we could make a similar (very controversial) case for climate change regulation: the current rich-world countries built up their economies largely on the back of environmentally damaging practices. Now that we're developed, though, there is a large push for global regulation of climate policy, punishing polluting countries. This is because the incumbent rich countries prioritize a solution to global warming over the desires of some (though certainly not all) developing economies looking to grow rich through the same environmentally-damaging practices we used.

The phrase "pulling up the ladder" feels like it's always used to illustrate the greed or selfishness of those who want to deny others the privileges they had. It's very clear, though, that there are some cases where we're totally fine with "pulling up the ladder" when it's the things that we ourselves prioritize (in this example, public parks over affordable housing, or climate-change prevention over economic development).

Re: Tax the Land

#540
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have different preferences, and different kinds of places are strengthened or weakened by different kinds of development. A pastoral scene is strengthened by pristine nature. An urban scene is strengthened by people and culture. However: a) Permitting systems are biased towards preferences for lower intensity; it is asymmetrically easier to block buildings than to force them through. b) People who would prefer…

> An urban scene is strengthened by people and culture. Not so fast. Rome wasn't strengthened by the Visigoths. More to your argument, while London is arguably unchanged by the addition of 1k or even 10k people, it is changed by the addition of 100M or even 10M. Maybe it's still good, but by a different definition. Forward reference: adding 10M people to London will necessarily destroy many of the "iconic neighborhoo…

The suburbs encircled the places worth caring about. Now we can’t have any more of the places worth caring about because to do so would threaten the historic fast food joints on their peripheries. Which almost no one even likes, but “almost no one” is all it takes to prevent a change under current rules.

Of sprawl we can always print more. Of places worth caring about we’re stuck forever with whatever we had before we the automobile. That’s bad!

London’s role as a center of civilization and culture is more important than its role as an architecture museum. I wouldn’t advocate zero museum pieces, but London could find some set of museum pieces to preserve that are consistent with non-museum districts actually serving the needs of people who live and work in the area.

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