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Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

paulefou.com

531–540 of 684 posts

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#531
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? When I buy a steam game, the big green button says “purchase”, not “receive a temporarily revocable right to access”. It’s the digital age. My digital items are my possessions. This dichotomy in your head between the “real” and the “digital” doesn’t exist for the younger generation. There are few alternatives to these large tech companies. As I’ve gotten older I’ve wisened up and I buy DRM-free digital goods…

"It’s the digital age. My digital items are my possessions. This dichotomy in your head between the “real” and the “digital” doesn’t exist for the younger generation." That's a weird way to put it. It may not exist "for" someone, but as you seem to acknowledge, it exists "for" numerous corporations and legal systems which even those someones are subject to. I thought this was the primary purpose of NFTs. An NFT physi…

> No judge is going to weigh what the "buy" button omits over what the EULA actually states.

Right, but that's my point (as the original poster). 100%, a judge should say "terms are terms, company is in the right"; we need new laws to protect consumers. By and large, consumers don't understand how digital is different; that it isn't ownership (in fact, arguably, consumers don't even understand that when they buy a bluray, that also isn't ownership in a legal sense; but it is ownership in common parlance). Whether these service providers would still see such success, if they did, is an unknown quantity; they probably would, but it can't be known. What is known is that consumers are (rarely) being shafted, with no recourse, because they agreed to something they didn't understand; it doesn't occur to most people that Apple even has the power to ban accounts, and take all their content with it.

Counter-argument: "Well, people should read the EULAs and understand it". Oof. First: the EULA may say "we have the right to revoke access" but that means nothing without the context of how, why, and how often it happens. These companies have not demonstrated even the BASIC DECENCY to EXPLAIN THEMSELVES when they ban users, let alone publish reasonable information about how often it happens. The statements in the EULA are useless without this context, because it enables savvy consumers to compare their statements with their own risk profile to make informed decisions. But, second: arguing this point is basically saying "dumb people deserve to be preyed on by international gigacorporations". Most people don't understand what this language means; in many cases, it seems to be written specifically so it can't be understood without a law degree.

Counter-argument: "Account termination & content revocation is rare, so whatever." Well, this point defeats itself, but think about it this way: If its so rare, then why not protect consumers? Companies will oppose it, of course, but they're arguing from the ground that its so rare that enforcement of this law wouldn't hurt them. If they hurt consumers, it'll hurt them. If they don't, it won't.

The narrative is getting twisted here; its not that consumers should have "irrevocable ownership" over a digital good you buy on, for example, Steam. Well, the NFT crowd would say you should, but let's ignore them. The assertion is: there should be fair and equitable recourse for when a service provider decides to revoke your access to the service which distributes the content you purchased. That recourse would ideally be met by simply unshackling the content from the service provider; the ability to play Steam games without being connected to Steam, for example. However, short of that, reimbursement is fair. It would absolutely hurt companies in this day and age of "terminate accounts for any reason, sometimes no reason, whatever the system decides" but THAT'S THE POINT. Companies only speak money. The point is to make termination hurt them, so they're forced to think more critically about how & why they terminate.

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#532
post #287
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the paradigm of any system, period. If you work correctly for the most part, the minority which you create negative value for can be offset and establish that system as viable. This is true for brick and morter/mom and pop businesses. It's true for computer programs. Basically any system. It is not an indicator for a monopoly.

To me this seems to be readily apparent, but I'm getting downvotes without reply. I'm sincerely curious how what I've said can be disagreed with, do you not all use software that gives you a negative value but maybe gives positive value to your managers? Is that tool a monopoly or does my statement just hold true? Every system that survives, survives because it generates positive value for most people, no? Are you te…

I think you might be suffering from a common and general objection to normalizing tortious practices

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#533

IMO, if your market share is bigger than ${some number}, you shouldn't be able to deny service without a documented reason, it should have some sort of time-to-live (i.e 1 year), and there should be an appeals process. In a functioning marketplace, companies would be naturally incentivized to care about customers but that stops working in uncompetitive industries (which currently describes most of the economy).

Unfortunately there are scenarios where providing a documented reason or appeal is a vulnerability, illegal or both. A too-clear disclosure gives bad actors information on how to circumvent controls around safety, abuse, and fraud. If the reason an account is deleted includes some sort of KYC/Money Laundering issue, OFAC style sanction or child porn, then there can be legal obligation, with severe penalty, to both re…

Disclosure also gives people information on how to stay within the rules.

Account deletion tips off the user so we're not talking about cases where there's a legal obligation to not tip off the user.

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I am not a libertarian or anything like that. I'm all for good regulation and strong government. However, making good laws and regulations is not easy! The details of these things is incredibly important and can't be solved by some sort of generic market vs government debate. And while I do think government has a role to play, most of our regulations are poorly designed and have been captured by corporate inter…

> The details of these things is incredibly important and can't be solved by some sort of generic market vs government debate. > most of our regulations are poorly designed and have been captured by corporate interests Isn't the second comment a generic statement? Do you have specific data? I agree that the details are incredibly important.

Fair enough, I'm generalizing that US regulations are poorly designed, based mostly on my experience with municipal building codes and few niches of finance regulation.

But about the issue at hand, I've been specific in my critique: market share is an amorphous concept and thus ill-suited to legislation and a prime opportunity for regulatory capture.

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#535
post #523

By far the best part is they didn't automatically cancel his subscription. What a horrible company, if you've banned my account that's fine but cancel the subscription and refund my money. If y'all haven't looked at it yet, read up on the FCC's filing against Match. They knowingly prompt up tons of fake profiles, to get you engaged. Horrifically this has lead to romance scams being the number one source of fraud in t…

I met my wife when she tapped me on the shoulder in a public place and introduced herself. I just smiled and nodded and ended up with a date - I think I might have gotten my name out at some point -- not sure. She calls me by the correct name now, 20+ years later in any case. Online dating sites/apps seem like they'd be a nightmare.

No post body was provided.

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#536

I just lost my IG account after having it for literally a decade. Short story: I thought my engagement was low, so I manually went through my not-very-large follower list (2400 or so) in the IG app, identified about 100 accounts that I thought were bots (accounts that were following 6000+ people), and then went to each one and removed them as a follower. I made it about 40 in when suddenly I got meaningless errors, l…

I was banned for trying to create a 2nd account for my business.

Not bad! Perhaps people on Instagram don't want to see "businesses"?

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#537
post #30

From Tinder's ToS: > Tinder may terminate your account at any time without notice if it believes that you have violated this Agreement. Upon such termination, you will not be entitled to any refund for purchases. > For residents of the Republic of Korea, except in the case [...], we will without delay notify you of the reason for taking the relevant step. They openly say in advance that they'll ban users who they thi…

I'm not single and haven't been fora long time, but my understanding is that if you're single you can't really opt out of these apps, practically speaking. Even the norms around dating, picking people up in bars, etc. are changing because of these apps, so it's harder to find people in the real world. Not impossible, obviously, but getting banned from Tinder is kind of a big deal. (Also all these apps are owned by th…

Yeah. I'm off the "market" for 15+ years, but I really worry when I read about normal-seeming 20 year olds (or even younger) who met their partners on Tinder. It's something that's going to affect young people whether they take part in it themselves or not. Ruthless markets in relationships probably aren't going to make them happy.

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I am not a libertarian or anything like that. I'm all for good regulation and strong government. However, making good laws and regulations is not easy! The details of these things is incredibly important and can't be solved by some sort of generic market vs government debate. And while I do think government has a role to play, most of our regulations are poorly designed and have been captured by corporate inter…

Regulations are like code - buggy and iterative. That's why you need a responsive democracy (which the US decidedly does not have). So when a regulation has bugs, the people can get their representatives to update it. We don't avoid writing code just because it's inevitably buggy and has unintended side effects. Indeed, there's a whole mentality of "move fast and break things" - essentially damn the side effects and…

Sure, but the first step to evaluating if an idea is "the best decision [we] can [make] in a reasonable time" is to understand what the idea is.

So, per all of my questions, how does this idea work? How is market share defined and measured?

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#539
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shadow banning is a legitimate tool when you assume that it is necessary for you to offer your services with the absolute lowest barrier to entry. There are plenty of other very reasonable approaches to prevent malicious actors from simply creating new accounts - the easiest of these is to attach a modest cost to account creation which is a solution that marketers absolutely loathe band thus has been casually discoun…

We're literally on a site that uses shadow banning. @dang has mentioned quite a few times.

Yup - I'm well aware - and the barrier to entry for HN is pretty much non-existent. Some features are locked behind karma accumulation but most of the moderation is done manually and the community is small(ish) enough and of a professional bent - meaning that a lot of people know who other folks are IRL. Removing the anonymous factor for a large portion of commenters makes them follow the rules a lot better.

There still are lots of issues with smurf accounts though, again, there's a sort of barrier to entry in that extremely new and low karma accounts can get their comments [dead]'d very trivially.

Re: Tinder just permabanned me or the problem with big tech

#540
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's bullshit, but it's what the IP marketplaces want you to believe.

What part do you see as bullshit? Theater tickets and premium video channels like HBO are long-standing examples of the model. There are some services that act more like purchases, with Amazon video being a big example. But it seems to me that the vast majority of video and music content today is being sold on the access model, not the purchase model.

If the counterparty refuses to prodive a service you've already paid for, they should be liable to reimburse you.
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