Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation • Hacker News Board

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#531

Post by krapp » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

Veelox wrote: post #500

sseagull wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the paradox of tolerance. A truly tolerant society would tolerate intolerance, which makes the society not truly tolerant anymore. So a society would need to be a bit intolerant to stamp out intolerance, making it overall more tolerant.

Forget tolerance I want liberty back. What makes tolerance so good that it should be prioritized over everything else? I want everyone granted certain inalienable rights and then allowed to live how they want as long as they abide by their rights and the rights of others. If people want to use their right to vote, follow the process, and support something that others disagree with, that's liberty in action.

>(...) as long as they abide by their rights and the rights of others.

In other words, you want to prioritize tolerance over liberty.

Not even the most hardcore anarchist wants to live in a society where someone else's right to swing their fist doesn't end where their own nose begins, which is what true liberty entails, although they will vocally denounce any form of tolerance even as they implicitly accept it for themselves.

And it's worth pointing out that you don't even actually disagree with the paradox of tolerance in this regard, since the inflection point of tolerance/intolerance Popper claims should be a party refusing to recognize the rights of others or to act within legal bounds - the paradox of tolerance was written as a response to the result of German "tolerance" for Nazism at the time.

No one is actually arguing that mere civil political disagreement shouldn't be tolerated, but rather there is a recognition borne out of history that authoritarian beliefs, if not pushed against, will overwhelm the body politic in a similar way as cancer. Accepting the paradox of tolerance means recognizing that some prejudices and systems of belief are inherently harmful and that their adherents will never simply accept peaceful coexistence with others within the framework of a just and civil society.

Nazis will never play nice, and casting them as a victimized and oppressed group with legitimate grievances with whom we should empathize, and whose arguments we should consider (or reconsider, since nothing the far right has to say is actually new,) will not end well for anyone.

And to serve the forum's inevitable reflex towards whataboutism, this is not to let extreme leftism off the hook. There just happens not to be a surge in hard left ideology happening around the world at the moment, so mentioning the left in the context of this specific conversation for the sake of "balance" wouldn't be relevant.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#532

Post by dukeofdoom » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

WaxProlix wrote: post #277

dukeofdoom wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antisemitism is on the rise to. Before comments were removed, the recent movie Santa Inc had tens of thousands of comments abut elves. It's full on Gab, and even on Twitter from the left.

I haven't seen much or any antisemitism from the left, unless you are referring to criticism of Israel's state policies.

The BDS movement, and the left just uses different code words, like 'Elites'

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#533

Post by mym1990 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

awhitby wrote: post #473

mercy_dude wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? This is the elitist fallacy that somehow having access cheap smartphones and plastics mostly manufactured in China at the back of our working class jobs make your life better while all else indicates life expectancy and quality of life across the board is declining for majority of Americans. Many Americans includi…

Quality of life is pretty subjective but US life expectancy rose from about 70 to 79 between 1970 and today.

While life expectancy going up is certainly not a bad thing, it can be hard to decipher what the quality of life is like in those later years. The life expectancy is going up because of drug/medical advancement, but obesity levels in the USA are at/near all time highs. Often times people are just moving surgery to surgery or drug to drug just to stay alive...

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#534

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

throw__away7391 wrote: post #471

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

I think life is better today than it was in 1970. You must consider that the 1970s started about 25 years after the United States bombed the bejeezus out of every single major industrial center in the world. America made "the best cars in the world" at a time when factories in Stuttgart, Munich, and Ingolstadt were lying in ruble--and with the world's top scientists, engineers, artists, designers, and architects pour…

> were lying in ruble

Ironic typo.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#535

Post by pezzana » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

What happens when prices keep rising but wages don't keep up?

Prices stop rising. Look back over the last 40 years and you'll see the same pattern. Inflation spikes are sharp but short. In the last few decades, inflation spikes tend to be followed by deep recessions as well.

For example, in 2008, the rip-roaring CPI print of 5% seemed very menacing. Few suspected that an honest to god financial panic was right around the corner.

For further evidence, consider the financial and commodity markets:

- the eurodollar futures market recently inverted

- the 30 year treasury is yielding -5% in real terms

- the dollar is not crashing in the face of rising CPI, as the popular wisdom says it must - instead the dollar has been rising for a year

- gold, the eternal inflation hedge, has gone nowhere in one year and is at the same place it was 10 years ago

All of these indicators point to lower inflation and lower growth ahead. Possibly much lower.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#536

Post by jimbokun » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #276

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

> These modern technologies make peoples lives much better

That's true in some ways, but in other ways these technologies make our lives better in the same way Heroin does.

> Compared to the 70s, a new car is faster, safer, more comfortable, and more fuel efficient. Similarly, most houses are bigger and better in America today.

Do you think these things are tied to meaningful improvements to people's overall happiness, mental and physical health, and well being?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#537

Post by nirvdrum » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

dhruval wrote: post #469

markvdb wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poverty is not just about absolute purchasing power adjusted for location and time. There is also very much an unspoken social context, sometimes even codified into law. In 1970, obviously nobody expected you to own a smartphone because it didn't exist. Noone had access to such a thing. Not so in 2021 western Europe. The example very much holds in that sense. You could fully participate in society without that expens…

Seems like you are talking about social inequality (a zero sum game) vs poverty (a non zero sum game) The idea that no one was expected to own cell phones so they didn’t enrich our lives is clearly false. Can apply this to any technological advance. So for eg. in the 1800s no one expected you to own a car. So the invention and subsequent technology driven deflation of car prices didn’t make everyone’s lives better.

> The idea that no one was expected to own cell phones so they didn’t enrich our lives is clearly false.

It's not like everyone in the 70s was walking around completely depressed waiting for some breakthrough in computing technology so they could carry a computer in their pocket and ease all their ills. People could be content and maybe even happy without access to technology that didn't exist. Many Americans would likely be happier if they got rid of the "smart" part of their phones.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#538

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #67

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want a raise the best thing you can do is find a new job. Note that this doesn't always even involve taking it. Go get a job offer that pays better and bring it to your boss. If they want to match it, great. If they don't, bye.

From the other side, whenever a member of my team has come to me asking to match an offer I've always refused and wished them well in their new role. If someone is unhappy enough to start job hunting rather than talking to me then it's a clear sign that they'll leave soon regardless of any pay rise. Psychologically, every pay increase makes someone happy for a short time, and then they get used to it and they start t…

> it's a clear sign that they'll leave soon regardless

The first thing my father told me when I started working was "never accept a counter offer. Don't put in your notice unless you're ready to leave - because even if they give you a counter-offer, they'll start looking for your replacement once they know you're looking."

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#539

Post by xwolfi » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

throwawaycities wrote: post #262

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

Glad this was the top comment. Wages have not kept up with cost of living for 50 years in the US. We need to stop pretending flat wages are some modern problem of inflation, and we need to stop pretending inflation is some problem caused by the pandemic.

Wages ARE the cost of living. Who do you think make your food, your clothes and your light ? Are you sure it's not your own desires getting ahead of your wage ?

I feel we can do things our grandparents couldnt even dream of (mines remember a time in his French village when horses would collect garbage, horses!) and that our parents suspected only. Hell the fact I can speak English and all it cost was a few taxe raises in education is already money well spent.

Tiring a bit to hear people bemoan a golden era where tv where black and white, religion prevalent, people disconnected, books expensive, knowledge hidden and medicine an embryo of what it is now.

Toil a bit, build more for your children and keep your eyes away from your selfpity.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#540

Post by ghaff » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

deadbunny wrote: post #466

prepend wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you traveled using maps and GPS? They are very different, and not even comparable. It seems to me like comparing a shovel to a ditch digging machine. It is possible to navigate using maps. But not practical for the mass audience of GPS who can’t use maps. And impossible for the industries that require GPS (uber types). Technology is a multiplier that increases the returns on things my removing labor and letting…

Am I in some kind of weird HN bubble where no-one has ever used a physical map? I've travelled extensively pre-turn by turn navigation using physical maps, i spent a year motorcycling across mainland Europe in my early 20's using nothing but physical maps, I did the same but in the US during the early-mid 2000's. Was it as easy as sticking a zip code into a magic box and having it tell me where to go and when to take…

I'm not sure it's an HN bubble so much as a people under a certain age bubble. Smartphones in the modern sense have only been mainstream for a bit over 10 years. The internet was only mainstream for about 10 years before that. But a lot of people seem to assume that we were hunting woolly mammoths with flint spears before that time.

Yes today's communications are nice but we really didn't need GPS or cell phones to leave the house however primitive paper maps and, yes, some degree of planning seem.