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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

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531–540 of 704 posts

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Find animals (behaviors) some people eat (do) but most don’t. 2) Make an appeal to some emotion to politically limit their harvest (acceptability). 3) Expand this program to the next least popular animal (behavior), repeat, etc. 4) Congrats, you’ve changed public opinion on what animal to eat (behavior) is moral and ethical. This is the formula of progressivism.

> This is the formula of progressivism. The process seems identical to majoritarianism.

It's the opposite actually. It's the dictatorship of the small minority. Nassim Taleb write an interesting article detailing it [1].

1] https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have though chopping off the head would do it?

But the head and guts is the best part.

He isn't proposing to throw them away, just to chop it, near-instant death.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#533

Even as a meat eater I’m pretty shocked that this recognises them as sentient and yet does not ban their slaughter (aside from boiling them alive etc). Maybe I’ve read too much science fiction, but eating sentient beings seems Bad.

I eat shrimp and fish because I genuinely believe they are about as intelligent and sentient as a carrot. Octopuseses seem obviously intelligent. Lobsters I do not know. Likely not intelligent and I would stir fry ants. The question for me is how much pain they feel being boiled alive. I am being won over to the viewpoint that there is enough possibility that they feel pain similarly enough to how mammals do that boiling them alive because they taste good with garlic butter is not a good enough reason.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you see the mites, though? The monks had a kind of sieve to filter out small animals from drinking water. There is a famous story when some of them developed extrasensory perception and realized the water they had been drinking contains millions of tiny beings invisible to the naked eye. They went to the Buddha and asked what they should do. The Buddha answered, if you cannot see them, that is fine. I like this s…

On the rats, no. Thank you for this story. I wasn't able to find it myself. Do you have a link? I did find the story of Thera Cakkhupala, a blind monk who was observed treading on insects [1] but because he was blind and could not see them was blameless. Could this be the story you were thinking of? [1] http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=001

No, it was definitely another one, and it mentioned Arhats. I heard it from a Tibetan teacher in the context of clarification of the origin of some Vinaya rules all monks should obey, so I assume the story comes from a sutra from the Kanjur, but I was unable to locate it in any of the sutras I've read so far (very few, actually).

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#535
post #5

Even as a meat eater I’m pretty shocked that this recognises them as sentient and yet does not ban their slaughter (aside from boiling them alive etc). Maybe I’ve read too much science fiction, but eating sentient beings seems Bad.

I mean, we know cattle, sheep, chickens and pigs are sentient yet we consume them. Why would we make an exception for octopods and shellfish?

We don't boil cattle, sheep, or chickens alive. They are killed quickly, by law.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. So long as we don’t torture them I see no problem in consuming other creatures. “One bad day” is a good guideline for how animals should be harvested for food. So long as they aren’t in physical pain during their life, I don’t think animals really care or even understand their situation. For instance, a bunch of cattle don’t wonder about how their lives would be better if they were free range. They just l…

It simply boils down to this: We don’t need these animals to survive. Human beings can live long, happy, healthy lives without meat and cheese. Literally all nutrients we need to live and be healthy can be found in plants, or manufactured and added to foods (which is how livestock end up with B12, actually) So, with that in mind, really any amount of harm or violence done to these animals is unnecessary, and done for…

> We don’t need these animals to survive.

But it's my culture to consume them. My people have lived this way for thousands of years and I intend on continuing it and teaching my children our traditions. It connects me to our shared history and it connects me to the Earth. I am a natural being on this planet and part of the lifecycle. Consumption of meat is a part of that. Cooking meat over open fire with smoke and the aromas filling my lungs means something to me.

I don't want to change my culture to another way of living that I am disconnected from. I understand there are many cultures that don't eat meat and I respect that and wouldn't try and change them to eat meat. But it isn't mine and I intend on living the way I believe that god, or the universe, intended me to live.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#538
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please define "feel". They experience structural damage - yes, same as every other living organism or plant if damaged. If I tear dandelion in half it will emit poisonous juice. Does it "feel" pain though? I think no. The "feel" part probably can happen only in the sufficiently large brain, and lobster most likely don't qualify.

If you wouldn’t be willing to “experience” the same set of experiences and pains via a similar subset of your sensory system and brain in exchange for the benefit of a meal that could have been cruelty free, then you shouldn’t. The burden of proof should not be on others to prove to you via rationalization/ intellectualization that it’s not a nightmare of an end to a sentient creature’s life experience.

I find this line of thinking somewhat short sighted. Animals in the wild will almost certainly die more agonizing deaths than they would at the hands of humans. Would you rather a cannibal kill you with one cut to the throat or would you rather be killed by a polar bear that might even enjoy watching you writhe in pain for 10s of minutes before you ultimately pass out from either the excruciating pain or loss of blood.

This isn't a moral argument for me, it's simply giving a fair comparison as to what the likely choices are for these animals. The choices are not pain from humans or some pain-free experience in nature.

I will say that being boiled alive is likely one of the worst ways to go though - luckily there are nearly painless alternatives to killing lobster that many people employ.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#539
post #498
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is - lobsters are an easy problem. We can (theoretically) collectively decide that lobsters shouldn't be touched at all and nobody will be hurt (some fishers maybe?). But the same logic about "feeling" pain is applicable to practically anything as is demonstrated in the comments below. And then it becomes a humanity problem - can we kill living organisms for ANY reason? There is no easy, or even hard answer…

Killing is one thing, Killing by boiling alive is on a whole another level of cruelty, like unit 731 level, nazi level cruelty. I don’t eat meat, so I don’t know why only lobsters are boiled alive and not other sea food. Whatever the reason, it is hard to justify. If we are going to kill something, the least we could do is kill it painlessly. At the beginning of COVID-19, some farm in the Midwest killed hundreds of p…

Yeah, ffs, just kill the lobster quickly right before you boil it, and stop whining about how not getting to boil it alive infringes "muh freedumbs".

Instructions: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/how-to-k...

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#540
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a fallacy at all, it's a concept called opportunity cost. Resources are not infinite, so we should spend them where they can have the most and best impact. By this logic we should for example stop most of the medical treatment in highly developed countries, where only a minority of humanity lives. For every dollar we spend there on helping a single cancer patient etc. we could probably safe dozens of peopl…

> By this logic we should for example stop most of the medical treatment in highly developed countries, where only a minority of humanity lives. Let's think for a second about what would happen if we did this. Massive amounts of people start dying in the developed world because they get no medical treatment. Most of the productive capacity of the world in terms of creating modern goods is located there, so that plumm…

> Let's think for a second about what would happen if we did this. Massive amounts of people start dying in the developed world because they get no medical treatment. Most of the productive capacity of the world in terms of creating modern goods is located there, so that plummets. Societies there collapse as people revolt at being denied medical care. The developing countries that were depending on this aid are even worse off than before. Hmm, does that sound like the best way to help the most people? I think not.

And that's exactly the reason why I asked you the follow up question: What is the list of things we should put our resources into then? Because I can guarantee you, that such a list would either lead to chaos, because it can't possibly consider every dependency chain and it wouldn't work with free democracies (like you'd had to forbid parties which care about seemingly less important things), or by the time you or some team of experts found the perfect solution, we could have already solved so many small and big issues.

> Oh you got me. I don't have a comprehensive list of all the important priorities. Whatever it is "lobster suffering" is way, way down on it.

You're acting like a whole country put everything to a side for a year, to figure out how lobsters won't get boiled alive, and due to it more important things got neglected.

But if you can't imagine such list yourself, then what is your solution for a society, which always works for the greater good in the most efficient way possible and who should decide what's the greater good even? Like how would it even work?

I mean people care about seemingly unimportant things, people also like to spend their time how they see fit and vote for the stuff they care about and I can't imagine a system where my local town is not allowed to care about the position of a park bench, because there's slavery going on elsewhere or the same town also has a virus outbreak in a school.

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