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Without parental leave I might be dead

nytimes.com

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Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#531

Post by ant6n »

ido wrote: post #520
chriselles wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so very sorry for your loss. As a parent, your post is incredibly impactful. As a company owner(20 FTE), I've had several staff take leave for catastrophic health issues in their immediate family. It's been incredibly costly for my small company to keep paying them indefinitely beyond their accrued and used holiday/sick leave, but it's been worth it in the long run. It has engendered the kind of effort, loyalty,…

I Germany it's 14 months total (if both parents take at least 2 months, otherwise it's 12) & it still felt like too little! I wish I could have spent more time with my kids when they were babies but I had to go back to work.

Up to 36 months unpaid if I remember correctly.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#532

Post by bettysdiagnose »

jseban wrote: post #518
bettysdiagnose wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your logic the state shouldn't pay for school for children either. It does though because it's an investment, the country is better off for having an educated and literate population. I suspect that one day free childcare will be viewed similarly as free education—something that may cost money but is widely accepted as "worth it" for the sake of society. Anyway I always struggle to understand the all-to-frequent h…

The country would be even better off with a financially literate, empowered population that could be responsible for their own lives, and could come to these conclusions themselves. Why are you surprised that an american centered website have just the opinions that are current de-facto policies in america? And why are you surprised that highly educated people that work in for-profit organisations prefer to be indepen…

> and could come to these conclusions themselves

People already have. That is what the state is. Society has come together to solve problems through the state. Just like with free education for all children (which sadly you didn't have the balls to argue should be outright abolished, and just ignored the point entirely).

> Why are you surprised that an american centered website have just the opinions that are current de-facto policies in america?

I mean the hyper-libertarianism you espouse is of course popular in the US but it's clearly not dominant judging by how much both Trump and Biden love to blow up the deficit.

>And why are you surprised that highly educated people that work in for-profit organisations prefer to be independent and manage their own lives?

Because not everyone thinks "fuck you I've got mine"? Is there any proof that going hyper-libertarian actually improves things? It's like the magical thinking surrounding "if we cut taxes, tax revenues will magically increase". Or in this case it's "if we cut the state so it doesn't help anyone who is in need, those people will magically be better off". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so where is it? Where's the proof that leaving vulnerable people to rot is good for them?

>I'm rather more surprised at the opposite, to discover that american programmers are actually communists and want to be cared for by the state in every way, and live uniform, identical, slow and inefficient lives. That seems to me like you would be in constant conflict with your surroundings and contradict your own life choices.

I can't think of anything more uniform, identical and slow than a society which exists entirely to optimise GDP or individual earnings. Hardly distinguishable from communism's obsession with 5 year plans at that point is it? It's an equally mad obsession with wealth and economic growth that is utterly degenerate and uncivilised.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#533

Post by jseban »

bettysdiagnose wrote: post #532
jseban wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country would be even better off with a financially literate, empowered population that could be responsible for their own lives, and could come to these conclusions themselves. Why are you surprised that an american centered website have just the opinions that are current de-facto policies in america? And why are you surprised that highly educated people that work in for-profit organisations prefer to be indepen…

> and could come to these conclusions themselves People already have. That is what the state is. Society has come together to solve problems through the state. Just like with free education for all children (which sadly you didn't have the balls to argue should be outright abolished, and just ignored the point entirely). > Why are you surprised that an american centered website have just the opinions that are current…

No, using force from the state is a last resort when people really can't use their own judgement, and is avoided as much as possible, this is consensus all over the political spectrum.

And being against parental leave is in no way hyper-libertarisnism and you know it, your argumentation is not made any better by using hyperbole.

Education is only free to the small extent that it's determined to be absolutely necessary. The majority of education that actually benefits society the most is not free at all.

"fuck you, I've got mine" is a funny expression, but in reality everyone always puts themselves first, and only has a limited amount of help for others, which they are very selective with. Nobody lives up the opposite of "fuck me, help everyone else" in reality, and the more you push that, the less effort you get from people. Fuck you, I've got mine gets things done. "why try" doesn't get anything done.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#534

Post by beaconstudios »

lucaspm98 wrote: post #500
beaconstudios wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is one of the wealthiest MEDC countries, and "homogeneous population" is just racist drivel.

Scandinavian welfare system is only possible because Scandinavian countries are more or less small and homogeneous. Social stigma is huge part in making sure people do not freeload and do not abuse social safety nets. That social stigma will not work in big, diverse and marred by identity politics countries like the US or even Canada (in my opinion). Actually, cultural traits penetrate all aspects of their economic s…

Canada has socialised healthcare, so you just disproved your own point.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#535

Post by em-bee »

refurb wrote: post #514
comeonseriously wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don’t have to have children. Ah, here we go. This is a veiled "only people who have enough money should have children" argument. > And people can and do stay at home with their children at all income levels. I am sure that disproportionately favors certain income levels.

What’s wrong with “only people who have enough money should have children”? I mean, that’s just being a responsible parent.

as a society we should not allow people to get paid so little that even a full-time salary is not enough for them to have children.

that is what's wrong.

if we want a balanced society then we need to enable everyone to have children, not just those who are able to get well paying jobs.

in austria and germany this is solved with giving parents tax breaks and unconditional extra money for each child to offset the higher cost of raising children.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#536

Post by UncleMeat »

jseban wrote: post #403
DavidVoid wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some European countries require the parental leave to be shared to some degree. Here in Sweden each parent gets 90 days of parental leave each, and the remaining 300 days can be split in whatever way the parents choose. You also don't have to take all the parental leave at once, you can spread it out over a few years (and 96 of the days can even be saved until the child is between 4 and 12 years old if you want).

Yeah which doesn't make any sense, how can you motivate to have two adults full time only to care for your own children. Sure I agree with the parent that "it's nice" but come on, it's extremely privileged. And it's commonly abused in Sweden to take several month long vacations abroad with the whole family, which literally nobody else can do, unless you have children. It's a privilege not available to single people a…

All social programs will be abused at the tail. That is not a reason to avoid those social programs.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#537

Post by UncleMeat »

angelzen wrote: post #340
TuringTest wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some circles have taken as an axiomatic truth that any disparity in wages between males and females is an intrinsic scandal. All babies are created by two humans.* Why should the career of one of them be penalized for it? Why not instead create as a society the tools so that both can share the upbringing and care of the baby while the mother is recovering? * (although the parents are not always the same persons who…

Your question: "Why should mothers take care of infants?" A passing familiarity with mammal biology is required. FYI, babies do not subsist on hamburgers and fries. Admittedly, it is very difficult to have this conversation when some people hold axiomatically that men and women are biologically interchangeable. Unless we can agree to a minimally reasonable set of differences between men and women in the reproductive…

Pumping exists. Formula exists. And it isn't like we see balanced childcare responsibilities once children are weaned. The disparity in expectations for men and women in childcare roles extend far beyond the biological realities of childrearing.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#538

Post by lucaspm98 »

beaconstudios wrote: post #534
lucaspm98 wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scandinavian welfare system is only possible because Scandinavian countries are more or less small and homogeneous. Social stigma is huge part in making sure people do not freeload and do not abuse social safety nets. That social stigma will not work in big, diverse and marred by identity politics countries like the US or even Canada (in my opinion). Actually, cultural traits penetrate all aspects of their economic s…

Canada has socialised healthcare, so you just disproved your own point.

In a ranking of 11 high income country healthcare systems, Canada ranked 10th. They were only above the US, and I completely agree our system is fundamentally flawed as well.

Source: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2...

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#539

Post by stewx »

In Canada, the most money you can get paid from public maternity leave benefits if you take the standard 12 months off is about $30k CAD (~$24k USD).

It's a major pay cut if you have a high-paying job, so if you are a developer making $100k, you are going to have a large reduction in your standard of living. The monetary incentive is still very much to work as much as possible.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#540

Post by merpnderp »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #496
merpnderp wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've raised kids. Mine were only up maybe 30 minutes every 2-3 hours when born. And there are 16 hours when a mom isn't working to have all those benefits you discussed. And if you can find a study that says there's a discernible difference in childhood outcomes based on those additional 8 hours of contact between a child and mother, I'd love to see it because I can't imagine in all the factors that involve chil…

Subtract commuting time, pumping time, getting ready time, etc out of those 16 hours. And no, there is not going to be a study that shows a discernible difference in childhood outcomes. That’s an immeasurable metric. But it is known that babies extract milk and regulate milk production much preferably compared to pumps, from the woman and the baby’s perspective. And that benefit alone is worth the 0.1% a nation shave…

Why wouldn't we just give the moms a choice? They have unique duties for child rearing so it makes sense to accommodate that as a society. But not all moms might want to partake since there are consequences to their careers (you don't gain experience in your job when you're not doing your job), plus some people hate being stuck home all day.
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