Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#531

Post by jasode » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #519

jasode wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most of your examples are commonly used phrases. Yes, and "10x" is itself also becoming a commonly used phrase that's getting less tied to the math number 10. This thread's extensive non -quantitative usage from many people is evidence of that. (I'm guessing that in a few decades, the bikeshedding about "10x" will eventually stop and it will be accepted as a non-numerical description like "a million times better") >…

> This thread's extensive non-quantitative usage from many people is evidence of that. Even putting aside comments like mine complaining about the actual number, this thread's extensive use of 10x to mean as many different things is a good reason to avoid the term altogether. The whole thread is just "10x programmers don't exist because X" and "10x programmers exist because Y", where X and Y are unrelated. > "10x man…

>10x to mean as many different things is a good reason to avoid the term altogether. The whole thread is just "10x programmers don't exist because X" and "10x programmers exist because Y", where X and Y are unrelated.

Yes, I understand your complaint here too but the various X-Y meanings isn't really the fault of "10x"... it's caused by any label. Previous comment about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28797871

E.g. the alternative word "expert" or "effective" such as "effective programmer" would cause the same debates:

- I think an effective programmer is one who understand the whole stack from hardware gates to web stack

- No I think a truly effective programmer is one who empowers his team members.

- No an "effective programmer" is really X. No it's Y.

-

It doesn't matter what the word is... "10x", "talented", "expert", "master", etc. There's no consensus definition and yet we haven't tried to eliminate those words.

Generally, I understand that people typically mean "10x" as a synonym for "massively better". (Because nobody who says "10x" has a stopwatch and rigorous academic studies measuring it.) And yes, the counterargument is "10 doesn't really mean anything" ... that's true but the "'massively better'" also doesn't really mean anything -- and yet we can't strike "massively better" from our language so we're back to the same issue.

There is no short label X that "really means" whatever everybody agrees it to mean. That's human language. We muddle onward regardless.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#532

Post by CRConrad » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

redisman wrote: post #492

xyzelement wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's so spot on. Your Q&A session is your chance to learn something real and convey what you care about. A good question might me like "what's the hardest thing you had to do this year" or "how did you make decisions in cases of disagreement?" or something like that. It shows you're thinking about the job and whether you're a right fit. High quality questions say something about you. Low quality questions do too. W…

Different priorities I guess. Personally I’m exchanging my time for money and would like to know what kind of a deal I’m getting. I’m too old for all the fluff bullshit. Yes yes yes I’m sure you’re changing the world and creating super exciting CRUD

Hey, nothing wrong with CRUD; it's what makes the world go around.

Not that that's anything like a reason not to ask what you need to ask, and turn a Q&A into a brownnosing session.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#533

Post by eyelidlessness » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

ezekiel68 wrote: post #510

qez wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't misrepresent or disagree with the author. He added extra commentary on something the author brought up.

The lack of context reltated to what the author wrote is a sin of omission -- because anyone reading a top-level comment that begins with a quote (like this) is, to a first approximation, going to imagine the commenter is responding to the position of the author.

I think that’s a good reason to read the linked article before drawing conclusions about its contents from discussion threads. Having read the article first, I understood immediately that the comment was not misrepresenting anything from the article, and that their commentary bolsters the point made there.

And you don’t necessarily have to read the article before comments. I often don’t! But when I encounter something in comments which seems incongruous with what I’d expect or hope to find in the article, that’s a good prompt to go ahead and read it to gain context.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#534

Post by admiral33 » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #519

jasode wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most of your examples are commonly used phrases. Yes, and "10x" is itself also becoming a commonly used phrase that's getting less tied to the math number 10. This thread's extensive non -quantitative usage from many people is evidence of that. (I'm guessing that in a few decades, the bikeshedding about "10x" will eventually stop and it will be accepted as a non-numerical description like "a million times better") >…

> This thread's extensive non-quantitative usage from many people is evidence of that. Even putting aside comments like mine complaining about the actual number, this thread's extensive use of 10x to mean as many different things is a good reason to avoid the term altogether. The whole thread is just "10x programmers don't exist because X" and "10x programmers exist because Y", where X and Y are unrelated. > "10x man…

> They argued amongst themselves on the pettiest of things that had no impact on the business.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#535

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #349

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #310

> “if they ask about time off in the first interview then they are never going to be there!” The fact that this attitude is common scares me when I'm doing interviews. Time off is incredibly important to me. What's the use of making a great income if you can't get the time off to enjoy it? The culture about the use of PTO varies wildly between companies. A friend of mine worked somewhere that supposedly gave 20 days…

Your quote of the article made me think I was going to hate the advice, but then I realized you quoted it out of context, here's the full quote: > People might claim they have “signals” for these things… “if they ask about time off in the first interview then they are never going to be there!” But these are all bullshit. If you’re using signals like these you’re just guessing and turning away good candidates

Ooof...re-reading my comment, I can certainly see your interpretation.

It definitely was not my intent to paint the author of the article as the person who made that quote.

Unfortunately, I can't edit my comment now.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#536

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

DantesKite wrote: post #459

didibus wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your quote of the article made me think I was going to hate the advice, but then I realized you quoted it out of context, here's the full quote: > People might claim they have “signals” for these things… “if they ask about time off in the first interview then they are never going to be there!” But these are all bullshit. If you’re using signals like these you’re just guessing and turning away good candidates

That’s a pretty huge distinction. Can’t believe he misrepresented the author like that.

That was not my intention. I was operating under the assumption that anybody in the comment section had read the article first, since then it would have been known that I wasn't quoting the author, I was quoting something the author quoted.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#537

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #388

ghaff wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is especially true if the company uses "unlimited"/not-tracked/etc. time. Otherwise, unless you know someone at the place (and even then it can vary by group), you're left with making assumptions about norms that may not be accurate. Personally, I've never not used all my PTO in a given year and would consider being unable to do so a show stopper.

Unlimited just means they don’t have to pay out when you quit or get laid off, doesn’t it?

I live in a state where that's not required, so it doesn't happen anyways. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

When I put in my two-weeks at my last job, my boss said that if I can get all my work transferred in only a couple days (I did, since I basically had almost no work, hence my search for a new job), then I could just fill the rest of my two-week notice time with my remaining PTO. No reason to spend two weeks pretending to work at my computer.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#538

Post by rsj_hn » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

coldacid wrote: post #442

heartbreak wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author's company avoids that "unlimited PTO" pitfall in their job listings by describing the benefit as: > generous time off

That doesn't necessarily mean it's "unlimited". It could be that you get eight weeks and they just don't say so.

I think most people understand that "unlimited" does not mean you can take half the year off. It means there is no hard limit and it is up to a discussion between you and your manager. 8 weeks is pretty generous.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#539

Post by redisman » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

CRConrad wrote: post #532

redisman wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different priorities I guess. Personally I’m exchanging my time for money and would like to know what kind of a deal I’m getting. I’m too old for all the fluff bullshit. Yes yes yes I’m sure you’re changing the world and creating super exciting CRUD

Hey, nothing wrong with CRUD; it's what makes the world go around. Not that that's anything like a reason not to ask what you need to ask, and turn a Q&A into a brownnosing session.

I know, I’m creating CRUD as we speak

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#540

Post by rsj_hn » Fri, Oct 08, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

skeeter2020 wrote: post #395

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #310

> “if they ask about time off in the first interview then they are never going to be there!” The fact that this attitude is common scares me when I'm doing interviews. Time off is incredibly important to me. What's the use of making a great income if you can't get the time off to enjoy it? The culture about the use of PTO varies wildly between companies. A friend of mine worked somewhere that supposedly gave 20 days…

If the company thinks they have a good story around PTO they will sell it in the first interview. As an interviewee it's very important to me and I will definitely ask questions, but later in the process when I have more leverage. I don't think someone asking in the first interview is lazy, just perhaps naive. They'd be better to ask about work/life balance and expectations in general and then probe what the intervie…

Correct. It is in the interest of the company to sell you on all the perks and they should do that up front.

It is in your interest to view PTO as any other form of compensation and to make those compensation demands after you have demonstrated how valuable you are to the company via the interview process. You don't start negotiating salaries before the first interview, because that's a bad strategy.