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For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

blog.perrysun.com

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Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been building websites since some time last century. I was there during the first browser wars. I was there for the first versions of those browsers! And I agree almost entirely with the complaints throughout this discussion about how outdated IE became and how lacking Safari now is. It's true that IE6 took more flak than it really deserved because people forget how good it was for the time when it first becam…

> It's true that IE6 took more flak than it really deserved because people forget how good it was for the time when it first became available. This makes the same mistake as many sibling commenters here in that it equates "new features" with "good". You're making out that IE6 didn't deserve flak in the early days because it had innovative new (non-standard, incompatible) features. You're making out that this was some…

This makes the same mistake as many sibling commenters here in that it equates "new features" with "good".

No. You seem to be reading that into something I wrote but it's not what I actually said.

New features are certainly important. There is no progress in the capabilities of the Web platform without them and our requirements for web sites and applications today are far more demanding than they were a decade or two ago.

However adding new features is not the only thing that matters in a browser. The quality of implementation also matters. For years Chrome was pushing support for new CSS3 features that we take for granted today like rounded corners and gradients. Unfortunately the rendering in Chrome when you used those features often looked like some kind of poorly blended, poorly aliased, low-res bitmap from the 1980s so if you wanted a professional-looking site you still had to use images anyway.

Safari is falling behind in a standards-compliant, consistent, detectable and progressively-enhanceable way.

No, it isn't. It has had numerous problems where it didn't even follow standard behaviour or have a good quality of implementation for features that it did claim to support. Maybe you've been lucky enough to avoid them, although I don't see how you could have worked on more than the simplest of web sites and interactive features on iOS devices without running into some of the more common problems.

The box-model is the biggest example: specifying any padding AT ALL in CSS in 2005 meant you were making a choice between showing the specified padding correctly in IE, or in every other browser. Without brittle hacks discovered by tireless volunteers, there was no way around this: the same property did radically different things in IE vs others.

Maybe not the most convincing example. IE's behaviour on this one was much more logical and useful than the standard definition. Web developers today typically use CSS features that were added later to use IE's box model by choice.

But also not the most convincing example because you're talking about several years after IE6 came out. As many of us have said throughout this discussion, the problem with IE wasn't so much what it did at the time IE6 was released, at which point IE was completely dominant in browser market share, but that afterwards it didn't keep up with other browsers as they gained share as well and didn't improve its standards compliance as those standards started to matter more.

In 2021, if Safari doesn't support a feature, it doesn't support it: the property simply does nothing (neither useful nor harmful).

I wish that were so. It would be preferable to what we have today, which includes both missing features and present features with poor quality of implementation. Let us know when rotating an iPhone between portrait and landscape reliably handles basic responsive design properly instead of doing its own strange scaling that often leaves some parts of a page wildly out of proportion with others. I've lost count of how many days I've wasted working around iOS Safari issues in just that one area alone.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#532
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a personal opinion, but I'm actually really glad Apple are dragging their feet on this. >I have my browser set up to wholesale reject all push notifications I am struggling to understand the reasoning here. You don't like feature X but fortunately there is a configuration to turn it off. But you would still like it taken away from everybody else? Perhaps I am misrepresenting your position, could you clarify?

I don't want to normalise endless notification spam, which is what having this feature in Google's advertiser-friendly conception of it available ultimately does. I'm already considered a bit strange my by friends for muting all group chats and disallowing notifications for things, we don't need to entrench this appalling social norm any further. I find the idea that everyone should be instantly available at the clic…

Thanks for your clarification, I understand your reasoning now

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a PWA can’t compete in quality with a proper native app, should a competitor ever build one you’re toast. The question just revolves around how integral an app is to the business. Online banking probably requires an app. A restaurant that offers online ordering probably does not. A video game requires an app. An online encyclopedia does not.

This is so wrong it hurts. I know businesses that had to decide between making a mobile PWA style website or a native app for their customers to use... and the customers all wanted the website . No sitting around waiting to download and install updates. No corporate phone-wiping security policies. All the features that mattered, even if Safari didn't look quite as nice and missed one or two. PWA vs native app doesn't…

I’d be interested to see how the customers made an informed choice between a non existent native app and a PWA app.

Probably they made the choice after listening to an opinionated story about ‘sitting around waiting for updates’. Which nobody does, of course, because if you mind that you just turn on automatic background updates.

At least in this story Safari is good enough to have the features that matter. The world is safe.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#535
post #307
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the most part W3C is where standards go when they’re finished (often long after developers expect them to be available everywhere, especially these days). WebUSB for example is currently a draft, not a standard. Many of these complaints are about technologies that Chrome implements that have yet to be fully standardized.

> Many of these complaints are about technologies that Chrome implements The article mentions explicitely: WebRTC, VP9, WebP, notifications, home screen icon shortcut, Local data storage, camera, microphone, USB port, and some more. The only one in there that is not supported by w3c, as far as I know, is USB. All others are proper W3 standards yet unsupported by Apple WebKit/Safari. Many of these complaints are about…

Notice how these are all Google technologies?

That doesn't contradict your point per se, but it basically feels to me like Google is dictating the standards right now. So I'm not sure Apple needs to play along.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#536

Yes, because we all want notifications and more things running in the background that can access to the device's ports. I take the points about not supporting CSS features and some of the other web standards, and the issues around Apple's 30% cut, and I'd add that some of Apple's censorship (eg. banning Parler for a while, asking Telegram and Tumblr to not allow access to certain content) is troubling, but I don't th…

Notifications can only be sent after you “install” a website as a PWA. Same for background stuff. Don’t want that? Just use it as a regular site.

Is this true ? Websites as they are now already ask for notifications in browser safari

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shit they even admit as much with the popup for the app saying "it's better in the app".

The oddest thing is it's still better on the web than the Android app that's practically unusable. You click open in app and then it loses your thread you're trying to read. I don't even have any strong objections to the app but happy to dance though the dark ux pattern to read the posts!

I have a curated list of subreddits I like to read. The moment old.reddit and i.reddit stop working I'll drop them like a bad habit. I'm not going to use their absolutely terrible "new" UI nor their insipid app.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#538
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shit they even admit as much with the popup for the app saying "it's better in the app".

As of late, if you’re not logged in, many features get disabled, like the ability to expand/read more comments.

Use old.reddit.com/i.reddit.com and many of those restrictions go away.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#539

> Because IE was seriously outdated, lacking support for cutting-edge web APIs and technologies enabling the modern websites and web apps we use today. This is just false, or at best only half of the story to make a false equivalence. IE was cutting edge until Firefox. The biggest problem with IE was all the insanely weird shit it did, not missing features. It would “fix” missing tags, that would then be broken on ev…

> Chrome is closer to IE than Safari because of market share AND developers developing exclusively for it forgetting anything and everything else.

^^^ This! Yes, exactly! ^^^

I'd have thought the world had learned it's lesson with developing websites exclusively for IE, but apparently not. When you develop a website to make use of a single browser and break in (m)any others, you're purposely attacking the way the Web works. It's all designed around standards for a reason.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your general sentiment, and I despair at the slow tide of inefficient, ill-behaved applications built with web technologies swallowing up every category of software. However, I think the main complaint here is that Safari is missing support for some pretty low-hanging fruit. Take notifications for example: there's a whole wealth of web-based systems where the user might want to receive notifications, but…

Web developers (and/or the companies who hold their reins) have proven that they can not be trusted with access to notifications. I personally don't care how useful they may be for the 0.001% of applications when the remaining 99.999% are spammers. There's not one site that's allowed to spam me with notifications on the desktop, and I'm thrilled beyond belief that they can't do it on my iPhone.

There’s no reason they can’t be implemented exactly the same way as native apps on iOS. You get one ask, and if the user says no, all future asks are ignored by the system unless the user manually enables them. You could even implement additional restrictions like requiring the user spend a few minutes on the site before showing the dialogue.
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