Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#531

Post by ineedasername » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

dd36 wrote: post #525

ineedasername wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just got a new car, the dealership handled the insurance transfer. It was on us to separately verify current vs. desired coverage separately. Not sure this is the norm though.

Ultimately it’s the insurer’s product. They should verify everything, especially if they’re allowing third parties to input policies. They can easily flag outliers.

Very true. And customers should always check on things too. But I can also understand how a customer that goes with the flow of a car dealership smoothing through these things (when they should be more deliberate about) doesn't realize what's happened.

That abstract scenario aside, it's pretty bad that the insurance & dealership didn't flag anything in this issue when the Tesla was purchased. Even if they only gave a pro-forma "do you want to keep your current level of coverage?" It's bad... they're the experts on these things and should advise customers appropriately.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#532

Post by techrat » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

simondotau wrote: post #492

techrat wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 - The horrible truth about Apple's repeated engineering failures. - Louis Rossmann

The only difference between Apple and its competitors (Dell, Acer, Samsung, etc) is that Apple's shiny brand image makes content like Louis Rossmann's compelling. If the same treatment was applied to the likes of Dell and Acer, they'd be looking just as bad if not far, far worse than Apple. (To be clear, the above is regarding Apple's engineering specifically, not about their business practices. I agree that Apple's…

Funny because I've never had problems with, what is commonly accepted as the lowest of the three you mentioned: Acer, like I have with Apple. I have an old Chromebook C710 that just. will. not. die. My Partner's newer Macbook only has one working USB port now. There are more Apple products in my product history graveyard than everything else. Combined.

I've long come to the conclusion that people simply treated their Apple devices better and not that they actually were higher quality or better engineered.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#533

Post by mulmen » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #527

rdtwo wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are in the bmw sweet spot I think. Newer ones have even more complex and expensive parts but reliability isn’t better and access is difficult

Sure. I'm pre turbo. The electric water pump is undoubtedly better for long term, but had initial issues (on the other hand, it has a clear engine code and is easier to access)

I have a 2010 BMW 335, which is twin turbocharged. It is on electric water pump #3 in less than 100k miles. My mechanic tells me not to worry about coolant change intervals because these water pumps will never last that long anyway.

The electric pump is great from a performance/efficiency perspective because the car can make choices about coolant temp irrespective of engine speed. It's a horrible device from a reliability perspective though. I have already been stranded by it once.

My turbos are "fine". But I know they will fail in the next 30k miles. In talking to my mechanic the prices fluctuate quite a bit, so I am going to start keeping an eye out and just buy a pair to have on hand when mine finally let go.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#534

Post by ineedasername » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

rini17 wrote: post #480

ineedasername wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should also have to state how much the repair would cost if done at the factory where they can actually service the battery pack. Imagine if other cars were like that: "Sorry, we're not able to service engines so instead of replacing your timing belt for $400 you have to buy a new engine for $6000"

How would quote from factory help? I'm pretty sure they would quote disassembly/reassembly work on the battery pack, to replace whole piece of plastic the nipple is part of.

I'm talking about the fees charged to a someone returning a lease for any damage, which would be less than the cost of a new battery pack. When you return a lease you are obligated for any damage/repairs not caused by normal wear & tear or covered by warranty. Tesla shouldn't charge a lease return customer for such things unnecessarily by replacing a battery pack when a repair is possible. If I return a leased Honda and the exhaust system needs to be repaired with a new muffler, they charge me for the repair, not to replace the whole exhaust system.

In this case, Tesla under-equips service centers so local battery repairs aren't possible. Shipping it back to the factory is necessary. So I can kind of understand if they charge the customer a $1200 freight fee + the cost of the repair itself, but that would still be > $10,000 less than the cost of an entire new battery pack.

Although I think it would be much better if Tesla actually enabled their service centers to do repairs like this. They can get away with it right now since they're more of a luxury/prestige brand and have minimal competition in that EV segment, but if you buy a Cadillac you don't deal with this type of thing:

As other manufacturers are catching up with offerings that compete on the lucury/prestige side of EV's as well as entry level cars. These are manufacturers with more experience in engineering their cars for decentralized service, with customers that expect that: Honda knows that their Civic customers won't buy a comparable EV if a little road debris will either cost them $10k out of pocket or raise their insurance by getting a $10k at-fault claim that raises their insurance costs. Tesla may have a hard time facing such competition without changing their model.

Currently the extra price of an EV makes attracts customers where price is not as much of an issue. As manufacturers significantly larger than Tesla enter the marker with their economies of scale and lower prices, the target customer for an EV will change, as will their expectations.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#535

Post by mulmen » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #396

rdtwo wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are in the bmw sweet spot I think. Newer ones have even more complex and expensive parts but reliability isn’t better and access is difficult

But they've been saying that as long as I've been buying used BMWs (20 years). It's just a way of conveniently saying "you'll be wrong in the future".

My experience with BMWs is that they do tend to have ridiculous flaws, like the main bearing problems in the E90 M3s and the V10 M5s, or the fuel pump issues on the E90s in general. But BMW will set them right.

The reality is BMWs just have a lot of stuff on them and so it is a numbers game. Things are going to break. Cars are a hostile environment. This is compounded by the fact that it is a BMW. I expect everything to work. If it was a used Corolla I may not complain as much about the seat mechanism not working perfectly every time.

Additionally BMW also expects the car to work perfectly and the car is eager to tell you any time something is abnormal. This creates something of an illusion of unreliability. An old Toyota also has a lot of problems, you just don't notice until you go looking.

And finally, dealers are predatory. They take advantage of the reputation of BMWs as expensive unreliable cars and sell unnecessary services, which perpetuates the expensive/unreliable reputation.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#536

Post by mulmen » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:39 PM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #343

throwawayboise wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying 10 year old cars that are nearly fully depreciated is where you save big money. You can get a dependable car for a few thousand dollars, and even if it needs more repairs than a new car you still come out money ahead especially if you can do small repairs yourself.

This. I drive a bmw 3 series. It retailed for $41k in 2004. I bought used in 2011 for $11k. It's now worth about $4. I still drive it, my maintenance costs are minimal, about $250 a year (I do it myself)

Did you mean to write $4k? Because I will absolutely buy your 2004 BMW 3 series for $4.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#537

Post by mulmen » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

sporf wrote: post #519

mulmen wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Gen 1 Tesla Roadster was a license built Lotus Elise. The Lotus Elise had a Toyota motor, the Tesla was all electric, what other Toyota parts are you talking about? Did they also use Toyota accessories?

The roadster was a “glider” (body minus powertrain) built on contract by Lotus, but it was not based on the Elise: it shared only a handful of parts with the Elise. https://www.tesla.com/blog/mythbusters-part-2-tesla-roadster...

This is interesting. I had forgotten all the changes they made. It makes perfect sense, especially for the parts that can't be seen.

I have a hard time saying it isn't "based on" the Elise because they look so similar but it's definitely more different than I suggested in my previous comment.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#538

Post by ineedasername » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

cja wrote: post #449

dev_tty01 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is the correct analogy. TSLA is unable to do a reasonable repair so they should bear the extra cost

You saved one keypress on the e but added at least two on the capital letters

You took 79 key presses to point that out. And here I am taking even more to respond. Clearly commenting is not based purely on a keypress-based economical model.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#539

Post by elisharobinson » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

xnyan wrote: post #239

elisharobinson wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not like a brake light or a suspension part this was a inlet port for cooling fluid to the battery . If not done correctly it will spring a leak in a onroad driving situation , Tesla probably does have safety systems to stop the car to prevent the battery from overheating and exploding. besides they charged 700$ for 5$ worth of parts and 1~2 hours of labour :) that isnt the best advocacy for RTR IMO.

>5$ worth of parts and 1~2 hours of labour :) I think you're vastly undervaluing the cost of operating a auto shop + skilled labor. $700 was the cost for an auto repair business to 1) have a skilled technician find the problem 2) devise a repair method and 3) execute the repair. Car repair is an expensive business to operate. Rent/building costs are high, lots of expensive equipment, one of the highest insurance rate…

i understand that things need to cost something . But if you owned a toyota or a ford car and they charged you 700$ for service. Does that sound reasonable.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#540

Post by elisharobinson » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 8:13 PM UTC

revnode wrote: post #198

elisharobinson wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not like a brake light or a suspension part this was a inlet port for cooling fluid to the battery . If not done correctly it will spring a leak in a onroad driving situation , Tesla probably does have safety systems to stop the car to prevent the battery from overheating and exploding. besides they charged 700$ for 5$ worth of parts and 1~2 hours of labour :) that isnt the best advocacy for RTR IMO.

That rate likely includes transportation to the facility to do the repair. I would happily pay that over paying $16k and so did the customer. That's a fantastic argument for RTR.

from Teslas perspective this makes sense. the available options are as follows.

1. invest money in a supply chain to have parts in stock for the battery assembly(take many months).

2. do a repair in Tesla warranty and pick up the Tab again if it breaks or worse the battery is damaged.

3. force a repair on the owner/lessee to pay for a new battery assembly which is less likely to have issues/safer