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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#531
post #82

I’m curious as to what the biologically female competitors think about this.

That is literally what this article is: a cis-female weightlifter speaking against this.

But there was only one, and it was brief at that. I'd like to get a sense of what the others think as well.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#532
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the court held two things: 1) Strongly held philosphical beliefs have much the same protection as religious beliefs in law and 2) That doesn’t mean you get to express those beliefs to other people in workplace. In other words, anti-trans (or GC) beliefs occupy much the same position in law as anti-gay Christian beliefs. You can /believe/ them all you like & can’t be sacked for that belief, but if you expres…

I'm not sure that's relevant; the case was a Tweet, was it not?

I think it was significantly more than just a single Tweet. You’d have to go back to the original judgement (some of which is quoted in the judement I linked to) to see.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#533
post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside is that the whole point of having women's sports was to give women a chance to win, which they would usually be unable to. What you are suggesting will again put biological women in the position where they cannot win. So you have defeated the whole purpose.

>What you are suggesting will again put biological women in the position where they cannot win. We should remember that most cis women cannot compete at an Olympic level anyways. That's the point I'm trying to make in this thread - physical outliers are already responsible for lots of non-competitions at the top level of many sports. Every athlete with a physical advantage precludes some other athlete from the top of…

Because what you are suggesting will not only affect the top level, every single other level below will face the exact same situation. Genetically normal with determination female are still winning and trying at championship, scholarship, etc.. Let crush that because they are genetically inferior from a mediocre biological male right?

The point of male/female separation is to protect biological female from the genetic advantages of biological male, not from genetic outliers.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#534
post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? This graph would suggest she does: https://i.redd.it/vv4ws1848t671.jpg

If you read the article you'll see that Hubbard is top 10, but not top 3 in her weight class, and in no way a favorite to win. Even her scores pre-transition wouldn't guarantee her gold at the Olympics.

Yes, comparing a 43 years old who is in no way at the peak of their physical performance to a bunch of 20s shows the degree of unfairness. And no, Hubbard doesn't need to win gold for this to become unfair.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#535
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ideology"? Is it unfathomable to you that people would reasonably be able to feel that they have a different biological gender to how they feel in their mind? And that people cavalierly dismissing their acceptance in society is somehow not harmful? If you want to talk respectfully about the implications of transgender athletes in sport, that's one thing. But what you are doing is not that. You're trying to dismiss t…

I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?

This is just a personal anecdote:

In my puberty I had a strong feeling of rather being a girl and this caused significant mental anguish and some self harm. If had known as much about transgender people back then as I do know I would have likely transitioned then.

Today I'm pretty okay with being a man. I still sometimes have problems with it but not in the same order of magnitude.

From these personal experiences I think it is plausible that more people transition because more people are aware of the possibility and knowing other trans people in their age. I have no idea how big that group is however.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#536
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the distribution apparently: https://i.imgur.com/v0QRyDr.png Average is at 200 cm compared to 175 cm in general adult male US population:) Compare this to football: http://www.twolfanger.de/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Average-...

Not sure what your point is? The argument presented was that height mattered more than skill. If that were true, the tallest players would also be the best, no? Instead, very clearly, the best players are usually _not_ the tallest, sometimes not even close.

My point is that height clearly matters more.

It doesn't mean that skill doesn't matter at all.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Paralympic movement does something like this, and it's hard, e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-57404811 . There's actually a campaign in wheelchair tennis to allow players who don't actually need a wheelchair to be allowed to compete. https://www.theaccessibleplanet.com/able-bodied-playing-whee...

> There's actually a campaign in wheelchair tennis to allow players who don't actually need a wheelchair to be allowed to compete I've wondered about this - it's an interesting idea. Then the sport is just "Wheelchair tennis" and anyone can try.

I think people not confined to a wheelchair have more options for physical training. You could say that's an unfair advantage to people actually requiring the chair.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#538
post #415
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people have no idea just how massive the biological advantage is. Movies and popular culture have conditioned people to think that females can hold their own against men. Individuals can, in some contexts, where the statistical distribution overlaps. For example a mediocre middle aged man can be beaten in strength or speed sports by an athletic 20-something woman. But at the tails of the distribution, where the…

What about intersex females or women with androgen sensitivity? They are XX but might still get "the advantage of growing up with testosterone". Or women who have testosterone insensitivity and an XY chromosome pair (ie, are in all factors but their sex chromosomes female)?

2 divisions:

XX only division.

Unlimited division for everyone else.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#539
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what your point is? The argument presented was that height mattered more than skill. If that were true, the tallest players would also be the best, no? Instead, very clearly, the best players are usually _not_ the tallest, sometimes not even close.

My point is that height clearly matters more. It doesn't mean that skill doesn't matter at all.

> My point is that height clearly matters more.

Sorry, in what way is that clear? The best players aren't the tallest, so isn't it clear that your statement is false?

The attribute that defines success is skill, not height, which is evidenced by a look at the most successful NBA players.

You're saying "Because NBA players are taller than average, tall = success", which is just not really true.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should women's championships even exist? Isn't that just a pity prize? Either design a game where women tend to perform better (like certain forms of gymnastics) or where they tend to be more interested due to the cultural aspects (like cheer/dance), or let women compete in other areas of endeavor. Why have leagues for women in basketball but not "men under 6ft tall"? Is it to encourage girls and women to be phys…

This post is generally ridiculous, but I will point out that we do have weight categories for boxing. I suppose we don't have height categories for basketball because no one wants to watch that.

> because no one wants to watch that.

So... like the WNBA?

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