Brave Search beta • Hacker News Board

Re: Brave Search beta

#531

Post by Seirdy » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

solso wrote: post #297

Seirdy wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has not been my experience. Comparing results with Google, Startpage, and a Searx instance with only Google enabled reveals that the results are almost always from Google. Sometimes they merge multiple results that share a domain. I decided to add them to the "Semi-Independent" category of my collection of indexing search engines: https://seirdy.one/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-indexe...

Mixing with Google results only can happen after opt-in and only in Brave browser. You can see if a single query has been mixed clicking on the `Info`, or check the independence metrics on the `Settings` tab. The fact that you see results similar to Google for popular queries is a by-product of the fact that our ranking is trained using anonymous query-log. There is plenty of references to the methodology ( https://0…

That makes a bit more sense; I just read the blog posts. I'm concerned about the effects of optimizing against Google (namely, the extremely similar results); I don't think I understand the point of an alternative if it tries to replicate a competitor to this degree. The whole idea I was going for in that article was a diversity of information sources: if one engine isn't giving the results you want, try another.

Right now, users who want Google results and privacy can use a Searx instance or Startpage.

I updated the article to fix the inaccuracy. Diff: https://git.sr.ht/~seirdy/seirdy.one/commit/ddeeb36248ce5318...

Any other fact-checks are welcome.

Re: Brave Search beta

#532

Post by lern_too_spel » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #515

lern_too_spel wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why does Startpage pay Google and DDG pay Microsoft?

While scraping search results isn't illegal, by any means, it's also not illegal for Google or Microsoft to block requests they believe are from competing search engines. Presumably the cost of paying them is less than the cost of hiring engineers to constantly try to find new ways to outwit Google and Microsoft engineers. Again, if scraping data from websites without permission, Google simply wouldn't exist. Bear in…

> the default assumption search engines have made from the beginning, is that they are free to grab whatever they want from the web, unless you ask them otherwise to please not.

Which Google's robots.txt does.

> scraping search results isn't illegal, by any means

While scraping the results for yourself to look at might be OK, scraping results to display verbatim in another search engine without permission stretches fair use.

Re: Brave Search beta

#533

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

octatrack wrote: post #529

zzyzxd wrote: post #46

Previous related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26328758 If things go as planned, this may become a paid, ad-free, zero-tracking search engine. I can't express how exciting this is to me. Over the past few years, I have made several attempts to replace Google Search with DuckDuckGo. But they have all failed and I always ended up changing the default search engine back to Google. I mean, DDG worked f…

I switched to using StartPage after DDG failed me. I ended up adding !g to almost all of the searches. StartPage shows Google results through a proxy for improved privacy. I am quite happy with it.

Just a note that StartPage was bought by a not-too-privacy friendly company.

Re: Brave Search beta

#534

Post by basq » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

lowkeyokay wrote: post #263

zzyzxd wrote: post #46

Previous related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26328758 If things go as planned, this may become a paid, ad-free, zero-tracking search engine. I can't express how exciting this is to me. Over the past few years, I have made several attempts to replace Google Search with DuckDuckGo. But they have all failed and I always ended up changing the default search engine back to Google. I mean, DDG worked f…

> I mean, DDG worked fine for 95% of time, but the remaining 5% failure often led to some extreme frustration that I just couldn't stand. Is 95% really not acceptable?My experience is quite different though. When I don’t get the results I hoped I just use !g. Easy. But the result are rarely any better

In my experience, without use of g! DDG isn't serviceable.

Re: Brave Search beta

#535

Post by freediver » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:51 AM UTC

jonathansampson wrote: post #96

andai wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy. If you happen to have a Google account, Google will not be able to associate your query with this account. I'm confused about "routed through the browser" -- is the browser talking to Google directly, but without sending the login cookies, and then hoping Google doesn't associate searches from your IP with your identity?

Correct, a query is issued from your browser but without any cookies. While it's true your IP address tags along for the ride, the IP address isn't typically how users are tracked on Google-scale properties. Due to NAT and more, your IP address is not exclusively yours. It can represent many people at once, and over time. That said, if you are not comfortable with the idea of Fallback Mixing , you do not need to enab…

At the very least I suggest modifying the text on the page as it is misleading.

  > Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy.

IP address is definitely considered private information even at court level.

https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-...

Re: Brave Search beta

#536

Post by freediver » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

jonathansampson wrote: post #440

gundmc wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a dishonest way of bypassing payment for Google search API by impersonating a request from a user.

It's still a request from the user; the user consents to issuing these requests on behalf of Brave Search when they opt-in to Fallback Mixing. Anybody can issue calls to Google's search engine.

Doesn't this get the user directly in violation of Google's TOS which prevents automated queries against it?

Re: Brave Search beta

#537

Post by eitland » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 5:59 AM UTC

burn wrote: post #351

tobr wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to do this, but at some point I just stopped. Google is not better than DDG. More SEO spam and much more hostile UX. Brave has a culture of user-hostile UX too so I don’t have any big hopes for this. I like the idea of paying for a search engine, though. I would seriously consider that if DDG offered it.

Why not try Neeva? They are going the route of a paid search engine.

Upvoted, but here is the reason why I don't use it, some people haven't yet fully realized that Internet doesn't have borders:

> We will be in touch when we are ready to release Neeva in your country. Thank you for being part of the Neeva team, we are so excited to build the future of search with you.

Re: Brave Search beta

#538

Post by devenvdev » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:00 AM UTC

zzyzxd wrote: post #46

Previous related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26328758 If things go as planned, this may become a paid, ad-free, zero-tracking search engine. I can't express how exciting this is to me. Over the past few years, I have made several attempts to replace Google Search with DuckDuckGo. But they have all failed and I always ended up changing the default search engine back to Google. I mean, DDG worked f…

I wish they would add a feature that would let you add your own tags to counterweight the lack of tracking.

Right now google knows a lot about you and uses it to refine the search results, if you remove tracking - quality drops. But if you at least let the user tell the engine that "I'm a programmer, gamer, geek, whatever" it might just do the trick to counterweight that.

Re: Brave Search beta

#539

Post by beebeepka » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:04 AM UTC

kaba0 wrote: post #533

octatrack wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I switched to using StartPage after DDG failed me. I ended up adding !g to almost all of the searches. StartPage shows Google results through a proxy for improved privacy. I am quite happy with it.

Just a note that StartPage was bought by a not-too-privacy friendly company.

Startpage was turned into shit over the last few months. Requiring JS for search and absolutely freakish amount of ads dominating the first scroll of results.

Been with them for about a decade but this is too much

Re: Brave Search beta

#540

Post by kmonsen » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:06 AM UTC

burn wrote: post #351

tobr wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to do this, but at some point I just stopped. Google is not better than DDG. More SEO spam and much more hostile UX. Brave has a culture of user-hostile UX too so I don’t have any big hopes for this. I like the idea of paying for a search engine, though. I would seriously consider that if DDG offered it.

Why not try Neeva? They are going the route of a paid search engine.

I’m using Neeva. I like the team and the idea, but at least for me there is a drastic drop off in search quality from google. It is pretty far from 95% as good.