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I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

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Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#531
post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senior devs in my country make around 35k in international companies. Even FAANG is maybe 50k.

What country?! You should demand more?

You can't demand more when plenty of others will do it for far cheaper.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers should not compare themselves to a basket that includes (presumably) labourers, tradesmen, etc. SEs are educated, highly-skilled individuals and should thus be compared to the VALUE the NYC society places on other highly skilled, in-demand individuals. Be assured that NYC lawyers, radiologists, and bankers don't compare their remuneration to an average that includes dustmen, baristas, and hot-dog s…

Software engineers did ten years ago. That you think the proper reference class for SEs is higher professionals, not the general population, or even engineers generally speaks volumes about how things have changed in the past decade or so. There are lots of actual engineers being outearned by boot camp grads with two years experience. That’s nuts, and it’s quite new.

>There are lots of actual engineers being outearned by boot camp grads with two years experience.

Hasn't that been the case for decades now?

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#533
My take is

1) Most companies don't want to do training - like General Motors etc did in the 40s/50s

2) Most companies don't want to pay doctor/lawyer style salaries

3) As most software is closed source as an industry we over produce and throw away a lot.

4) Ageism is rampant - doctors or mechanical engineers can find jobs after 45

5) Can use this to lobby for easier visas for immigrants to lower salaries

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#534

> Furthermore, if you really want a C++ developer you can just expect a developer to learn C++ on the job if they have any adjacent experience with any other language. Is this really accurate? C++ is a very different language than even Java, not to mention Python or JS. Languages have their own quirks and attributes that often matter at some point. Especially C++. I am on a team where we are constantly building stuff…

I've probably spent ~1000 hours writing C++ in my life (admittedly, years ago) and objectively speaking I wouldn't hire myself even as a junior C++ dev.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#535
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>50% can't do FizzBuzz How can someone possibly call themselves a programmer (let alone a developer applying for a job) when they can't even pseudo something like fizzbuzz ? How can they use any API, tool or even copy code from SO without knowing how to write a foreach and a conditional inside?

> How can someone possibly call themselves a programmer… when they can't even pseudo something like fizzbuzz? Agreed. On the other hand, I can count the number of times I've used modulo professionally on one hand, so I wouldn't be too shocked to encounter a competent programmer who had't heard of it.

there are multiple ways to write fizzbuzz without knowing about the modulo operator.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#536

Hard to take this seriously with all the straw men and broad generalizations. Reality check: there has never been a hotter seller's market for software engineering talent. The fact that you have not landed a job does not mean that supply is not short in general. Rather than blowing your stack at some recruiter who you heard on a podcast interview, you might want to reflect on yourself and how you might be coming off…

>It's easy to write a blog post about how companies need to pay more, but hard to reconcile the reality that if they don't have FAANG cash flows, "market rate" for developers may not be viable, regardless of management's good intentions or lack thereof.

Working for less than market rate is a misallocation of labor. Of course this is under the assumption that your skills are not far below the average developer. If the market rate is high, there are more profitable companies out there that need the labor more than your business, taking labor away from those companies is a net loss for everyone involved (your own company loses potential customers, the worker loses out on salary, the competitor loses out on labor).

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent nearly a year interviewing at various companies and never landing a job despite decades of practical, relevant experience. It was extremely demoralizing and worrisome, and I believe the majority of the issue was extremely difficult interview processes. The size of the company didn't matter - in fact, the smaller the company, the more difficult and onerous the process was. One place with six employees asked fo…

No offense meant, but if you are surprised about the existence of Scrum Masters, then that interviewer is not at all wrong for wondering if you have enough Scrum experience.

Scrum is something management does and the developer has to "bow" down to. It's not something you can learn before the job because every place implements it differently.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know approximately what a closure is, and I am sure I have used such constructs instinctively in my work many times. I don't have a formal Cs education, but have never failed to not be able to finish my coding work because I didn't know stuff. Once a guy asked me to write out merge sort on a whiteboard and I couldn't. I didn't get the job. Surprisingly I'm doing just fine in my current position and am very producti…

You probably won't need merge sort in your day to day programming, but closures (sometimes called lambdas), definitely. Every time you create a function that captures some variables outside its scope, congratulations, you've just used a closure.

The point being here is that you can use them, but you don't have to necessarily know the term for them.

The only reason I know what a closure is in JavaScript is because I have heavily practiced for Frontend interviews.

I've been otherwise using them productively forever now.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#539
post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense meant, but if you are surprised about the existence of Scrum Masters, then that interviewer is not at all wrong for wondering if you have enough Scrum experience.

Maybe it was not enough experience working in Agile if you don’t know scrum ceremonies and stuff

> Maybe it was not enough experience working in Agile if you don’t know scrum ceremonies and stuff

You don't get experience with Scrum ceremonies, or other any kind of “ceremonies” unless they happen to be in the application domain rather than the dev process, working in a place that values “Individuals and interactions over processes and tools”.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#540
I know only part of the picture. But I suspect that the following factors are at least sometimes also in play:

* Many company start software projects as greenfield projects which are written by young, inexperienced, and cheap developers.

* These projects, when successful, grow, and become complex legacy projects.

* Some companies do not realize that it requires far more experience and knowledge to develop such a legacy project further, and expect to be able to hire young, inexperienced, and cheap developers, which pick up work exactly where the former developers were when they left.

* And then they might realize or not that it requires far more experience and skill to read, understand, an maintain such a project, then to start a small new project from the scratch. Yet the amount of work required to understanding and maintaining a legacy project can be a significant part of all the summed work of writing it over the years.

* And then, the companies might be in denial on how much skill they require, or they might not be transparent about the amount of work needed, in an effort to get new developers cheap.

* And in my experience, this is often with a general lack of appreciation of what the developers have actually created.

What comes to my mind is that I experienced an extreme case of this, many years ago when I was a young poor student. I found a leaflet announcing a job opening in an university from a company which sold a kind of embedded product. In the interview, they asked me if I knew how to write C, and if I had any experience with 8-bit assembly (which I had). When I came to my desk the first day, I found an 11-inch stack of 500,000 lines of print-out listings for Z80 (at that time, code was printed out in fan-fold paper). It was mostly generated from C code cross-compiled into assembly, an modified from there. It was commented in Japanese (a beautiful language, but I don't speak it). It didn't had documentation. It did not even have a Makefile. In the following weeks and months, I learned that a much more knowledgeable fellow student had offered his work for four times of my own salary. He was furious at me. The company was apparently not aware that he, being an assembly and embedded expert, was much more capable than me for doing this job. The company made tons of money with selling a specific kind of hardware, and the software, which had initially been reverse engineered from the hardware product, was a necessary companion product to their main offering. I also learned that the previous developer had worked as a contractor, and had left the business relationship after negotiations on his compensation failed. He had died shortly after that, and his widow was unwilling to provide any further information or notes he might have had. In the end, I could only achieve so much at that job - it was not that I wasn't smart but it was just way above my level of experience and knowledge (which was actually not bad). And it would have been years of work anyway. The company would have been far, far better off if they paid ten or even twenty times my salary to an experienced professional, rather than to a student. When I left, they gave me a shabby certificate of employment which even contained spelling errors. And I think that sums up the relationship they had with their developers.

Another thing that I have learned over the years is that while there are of course good and competent developers, and less competent ones, what more often than not makes a huge difference is how work is organized. It can easily increase or decrease the productivity of work by a factor of ten. And this can very much determine how much value good developers can create with their work. That means that if a company cannot pay that much, it might also be because its processes simply cannot generate good value.

So, in short, part of the mismatch which seems to crop up here could be that companies sometimes do not know what they really need, and also do not appreciate what they have in terms of people.

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