Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#531

Post by shkkmo » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:14 AM UTC

dogman144 wrote: post #516

kjksf wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes zero sense for McDonalds (or Starbucks or anyone else) to operate a money loosing restaurant. Furthermore, 82% of McDonald restaurants are franchises i.e. not owned by McDonald. https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/04/03/what-perce...

The franchise part is interesting, although McD’s owning them or not doesn’t matter as the cash flow is what’s relevant. In this case I wonder what the terms are for franchise owners in EU vs USA and if they account for higher wage laws. There are a number of reasons corporate entities operate certain or many stores at a loss. Very well known example is flagship locations that are locally at a loss, but earn for the…

Are you seriously arguing that yhe entire EU McDonald's market is operating at a loss? That makes zero sense.

Clearly it is possible to operate McDonald's in the EU and not burn money. Thus clearly there is a fast food business model that involves paying higher wages. Does this mean that every fast food store will remain profitable with the same hours? Probably not, but it does clearly mean that some fast food stores would be able to stay open and profitable.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#532

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:15 AM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

Think of the business side of the problem as a collective action problem. You want to pay your workers a living wage, but to do so, you have to raise your prices. If you raise your prices, your business will go to your competitor, so you can't exist if you increase your wages (and your competitor doesn't). Meanwhile your competitor wants to increase wages but doesn't for the same reason.

If the government mandated that when you raise your prices, everyone else had to too, then suddenly increasing wages won't put you out of business! Same story if the government mandated that you raise your wages (in this particular hypothetical).

You're right that both sides of the equation need to be examined, but it's actually a bunch of equations with a bunch of sides.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#533

Post by AngryData » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:16 AM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #259

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, no education, no experience jobs are the norm. Does that restaurant pay incoming career food service staff a wage sufficient to raise a family on? A solid third of the households in the US take in under 50k/yr. More than half that are under 25k. I don't know about you, but 37k doesn't go far. Assuming 30% effective tax rate that's 2158/mo. 1 bed flat in my city $1400 Cell phone bill: $100 Home internet: $100 E…

30% is way to high an effective tax rate at that income. Below median earners pay effectively zero taxes with the EITC and standard deductible. $400 is way too high for a car payment. You can get a great used compact for $10k. With decent credit that’ll run you $150/month. $100 is way too high for home Internet. I pay $40/month for 100 mbps, which is more than enough for five decides to stream simultaneously. $1400 i…

$100 is not too much for internet, I pay a bit more than that and it is the only internet available at all outside of my cellphones poor 4g coverage.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#534

Post by joe_the_user » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:16 AM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

I think a big factor is that a lot of restaurants in the US are throw-away businesses. The average life span of restaurant is five years. A lot of people enter the restaurant out of a weird desire to create something - which is to say they're shoveling money into the business 'till they're out of capital and then another "entrepreneur" takes their place. And oppositely, landlords and local government pretty expect that the sequence of failures is going to continue. Everyone else (landlords, restaurant suppliers, consultants and so-forth) makes money.

But watch out for technology and automation...that is the part of the equation that has been "solving" the labor problem for some time now...

Restaurant is a little bit convenience but mostly entertainment. If a robot is going to spit some stuff for you, why not buy an cheaper even microwave dinner, they're not that bad (or cook it yourself for something good tasting and which you can entertain yourself with).

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#535

Post by sokoloff » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:17 AM UTC

rbg246 wrote: post #441

nostromo wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That job might not exist at all if the government mandates your wage to be higher than the value of your labor.

Certainly, it's a balancing act. But equally is it ok for people to work hard and long hours and only barely make Or not quite make ends meet? Sorry I should note that I am not saying you are advocating for the above(could be misread).

I guess the question is what do you do when you find people who present with that situation: that they’re perfectly capable to hold down a job but only to create $10/hr of economic value by their labor.

If you set the minimum wage at $15/hr and do nothing else, you have made that person worse off than today. Everyone around them now has more money, so everything is becoming more expensive. They now can’t find or keep a job, because any employer who employs them is losing at least $200/week, $10K/year by employing them.

I don’t know what the optimal solution is, but it’s not clear to me that the above is it.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#536

Post by AngryData » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:17 AM UTC

howmayiannoyyou wrote: post #58

unethical_ban wrote: post #21

Occasionally, Twitter provides some nice insights in digestible forms (of course, nuance gets stripped). I saw a post recently that said something like "We watch Star Trek and marvel at their post-scarcity world. We are living in a post-scarcity world now, but all the benefits are being funneled by wage slaves up to the 0.1%." Paraphrased. I was talking with a friend who mentioned that a local pizza place is offering…

The bottom 99.9% in America enjoy healthcare, communications, caloric intake, political freedom, public services, education and safety from violence unprecedented in human history. By almost every metric society is better off now than it was in the 1950's, 1800's, etc. The over-focus on the negative propels us toward greater collective good - up to a point. We would do better as a society to revert to a mean that exp…

So when can I get my broken wisdom tooth removed since im apparently covered?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#537

Post by shkkmo » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:17 AM UTC

rbg246 wrote: post #404

humanrebar wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more concerned that teenagers in poverty won't be able to get jobs at all.

But you have said yourself it's 'bagel' money, it doesn't seem to be coherent to be defending both teenager after school jobs and teenagers in poverty.

You seem to have read too quickly, the poster was talking about someone working a cashier in a store that sells bagels, not about someone making money to buy bagels.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#538

Post by inetknght » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:19 AM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #349

inetknght wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Houston, March 2019, my rent renewal was $1500/mo for a 12-month lease or $1500/mo for month-to-month or a new contract. Houston, October 2020, my rent renewal was $1500 for a 15-month lease or $2100/month for month-to-month or a new contract. Okay so 80% is an exaggeration. 30% isn't.

> Houston, March 2019, my rent renewal was $1500/mo for a 12-month lease or $1500/mo for month-to-month or a new contract. Houston, October 2020, my rent renewal was $1500 for a 15-month lease or $2100/month for month-to-month or a new contract. Is there a typo here? You have to sign a longer lease but you are paying the same per month... that's a 0% increase. And as for month-to-month, paying zero premium for a mont…

> You have to sign a longer lease but you are paying the same per month

Signing a longer lease demonstrates that the new lease isn't like the old.

Otherwise let's compare apples and oranges in the economy too.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#539

Post by IdiocyInAction » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:19 AM UTC

lucian1900 wrote: post #513

parineum wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would a communist United States not trade with China?

Currently, US capitalists exploit workers both in the US and in poorer countries, with the later being super-exploited. Under this arrangement, the vast majority of the value created by both groups of workers is captured by a handful of capitalists. A socialist US would cease exploiting other countries (including China) and instead pursue mutually beneficial trade (much like China does). This would likely include som…

Exploitation that ultimately helped lift a billion people out of poverty in China.

A socialist US would probably, like most prior countries that called themselves socialist, be a poor, oppressive hellhole.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#540

Post by roenxi » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:19 AM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #527

dragonwriter wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? Because its effect would be a transfer of jobs from working class adults to middle class kids.

Do you think so? While companies are incentivized to hire kids, the kids don't get any more incentive to do these jobs though (wage stays the same), and neither would the supply of them grow.

There is, hypothetically, a market price for these jobs. It is below the minimum wage (otherwise there isn't much point in the minimum wage). It is set by the pairwise negotiations of companies, customers and employees.

If there is an avenue for the market to reach equilibrium (eg, by hiring children cheaply) then the market is going to try and take it. It will just create a class of jobs that adults can't get employed in because they cost too much to hire.

It isn't a question of what the kids would like, it is a question of what choices consumers and employers will offer them. If wages were set solely by employee's incentives then they'd all be paid much more than current market wages.