Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#531

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

dkarras wrote: post #428

dagw wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The significant difference is I (assume) no one depended on your forum for earning a significant part of their income. Once you set yourself as a place where you want people come and earn money, then banning them, and thus depriving them of something of real monetary value, takes on and entire different set of nuances.

I don't think there really are "nuances" about what the owners can and cannot legally do. There are nuances about the decisions about people that are willing to participate in the website however. Say I own twitch, can't I just shut it down? Maybe I mismanaged it, maybe it isn't profitable, maybe it isn't profitable enough to make it worth the trouble, maybe I want to make a statement, maybe I am bored, maybe I am si…

[deleted]

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#532

Post by jamnik » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

dkarras wrote: post #436

ImprovedSilence wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are using the mcarthy blacklist as precedent for banning peoples ability to participate in a social setting. As far as im concerned, since forever that has been used as a reason to question and challenge censorship.

I own Twitch. Can't I just shut it down if I wanted? Or should I be forced to stay open after becoming really popular because shutting it down would prevent millions of people's participation in a social setting?

Of course you can’t. It is illegal for you to shut down your own business just because you feel like it. It is illegal to make decisions that hurt your own business purposefully. You can get prosecuted fined and/or improsoned for willfully destroying your own business. You can sell it if you dont like it so much.

Moreover, one can cłami that social settings should be regarded as utilities. It is illegal for utilities like electric companies to shut down service on their paying customers. Will end up exactly the same with FANG companies. Why? Because people are growing increasingly tired of being regulated by some stupid websites and politicians will eventually notice this.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#533

Post by john_moscow » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #111

redm wrote: post #8

"The company said users will be able to report such behaviors but it may also investigate cases proactively, for instance if there is a verified news report that a user has been arrested." So we've arrived at "innocent until accused" instead of "innocent until proven guilty"? And if proven guilty, they will both be punished under the law, and again by companies like Twitch? If proven innocent will they be restored? W…

So you want the government to force private companies to continue doing business with someone they no longer wish to provide services to? We aren't talking protected class here, we're talking private companies picking and choosing who to do business with via non-discriminatory means. That's called a free market. Will they be restored if they're proven innocent? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, that's called a free market.

I want the government to force private companies to charge the end users for their services, and to start enforcing anti-monopoly laws. This will very quickly introduce competition to the market and will align the corporate behavior with the interests of the users.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#534

Post by CBLT » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

ohazi wrote: post #457

CBLT wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add a little extra context to what other people are giving you: large, million-dollar digital tournaments stream on Twitch because they have no other choice if they want to reach viewers. ESL signed a deal with Facebook streaming that destroyed their viewership numbers because people go to Twitch to watch, not the website for the tournament. Organizers have clearly seen this and will not move their stream to anoth…

> no other choice if they want to reach viewers > are incredibly few esports careers that could survive a Twitch ban (emphasis mine) People have never been entitled to a sports career, or to celebrity status by reaching viewers on someone else's platform. These platforms have democratized the "rags to riches" story, but whether it was the '30s or the '60s or the '90s, you've always had to play by the rules of the pre…

Pretend Harvey Weinstein is talking to you. And that he's reading the top-most comment (by newbie789) on this story: that he owns the company, so he can ban you at his discretion. Or gaslight you. Or show you shock porn. That this is fine, because it's how its always worked here.

I'll tentatively assume you got some of the same visceral recoil I got from that mental image. And that we agree that following everything Hollywood does is probably not for the best. So I'll ask you: if you could solve this however you'd like (by passing laws, let's say), how would you do it?

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#535

Post by TameAntelope » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

kodah wrote: post #502

TameAntelope wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think companies are acting in a moral interest and not in perceived financial interest?

I think the financial interest is connected to moral interest.

The responsibility starts to fuzz when you try to follow that thread.

It's clearly with the company executing the decision to remove someone from their platform, but trying to decipher whether or not what they're doing is a financial or moral decision (despite their claims, that's part of the financial choice) becomes fairly pointless.

If you want to rail against a changing society, that seems like a waste of time. If you want to rail against a specific set of companies who have acted in a specific way, I think that's more productive and addressable.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#536

Post by res0nat0r » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

AzzieElbab wrote: post #433

thomaslangston wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is no question that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of that day." -Mitch McConnell

You and I and McConnell might agree, but the congress didnt. Moreover, Trump was calling for everyone to chill when he got banned, which to me indicates really bad risk management on behalf of twitter and fb. They risked further escalation to avoid responsibility.

Congress' opinion didn't matter in this case, Twitters did, and since its their TOS they said he violated, they were free to kick him off their website.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#537

Post by ttt0 » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

> Twitch said it would rely more heavily on law enforcement in “off-service” cases and is partnering with an investigative law firm to support its internal team. It declined to name the firm.

So they're hiring investigation firms to spy on their users. Thank you Twitch, very cool.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#538

Post by beaconstudios » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #486

beaconstudios wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there's precedent for them severing a massive partner at will, in the case of Dr Disrespect.

Yes, but it's always always better to have a policy in place than to make one-off decisions.

Yeah that would be better, people should be able to know in advance what they're not allowed to do. I was just pointing out that they've done it before.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#539

Post by psychiatrist24 » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #466

newbie789 wrote: post #250

Coming from the perspective of someone that was an admin of a medium-large forum back in the vBulletin heyday of the early 2000s, I’m somewhat amused by people getting angry at moderation decisions. The rules were pretty clear: This is my website. I pay the bills and maintain it. Here are some clear rules that if you break them, you will be punished with a ban/suspension/shadow an/redirect to goatse upon login/etc. a…

Oh look, another "but it's a private company" defence of this behaviour. Imagine a town with a single supermarket. The closest next town is a 10 hour drive away. A certain individual commits a crime, and is punished for it by the local authorities. The supermarket then decides that they are going to ban this individual from their store because of "severe misconduct" in the community. Is this fair? Obviously, Twitch i…

Of course that supermarket should be entitled to ban the misbehaving person from their store.

To turn the story around, why should a business that takes it on itself to provide for a remote community be punished for it by forcing them to accept unruly customers?

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#540

Post by wongarsu » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

ohazi wrote: post #457

CBLT wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add a little extra context to what other people are giving you: large, million-dollar digital tournaments stream on Twitch because they have no other choice if they want to reach viewers. ESL signed a deal with Facebook streaming that destroyed their viewership numbers because people go to Twitch to watch, not the website for the tournament. Organizers have clearly seen this and will not move their stream to anoth…

> no other choice if they want to reach viewers > are incredibly few esports careers that could survive a Twitch ban (emphasis mine) People have never been entitled to a sports career, or to celebrity status by reaching viewers on someone else's platform. These platforms have democratized the "rags to riches" story, but whether it was the '30s or the '60s or the '90s, you've always had to play by the rules of the pre…

But it does elevate Twitch bans far above the "this is just like a forum admin doing as he pleases, move along" of the original comment.