Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time • Hacker News Board

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#531

Post by perrylaj » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

hacknat wrote: post #493

Correction: Since the 1940s "For the first time" is probably not true. This is since Gallup tracked this number. Post WWII church attendance really sky rocketed for reasons that are still not fully understood, but a lot of people think the emergence of the Evangelical movement bears a lot of the responsibility. It's much harder to track pre-WWII numbers, but according to the "Mapping America's Past" authors[1] church…

In mid-century US, religiosity/faith were also promoted by capitalists as counters to rising global popularity of Communism/Socialism. The 1954 addition of "Under God" to the USA's Pledge of Allegiance was marketed (in part) as a means of differentiating from the Godless Communists. I'd be surprised if this big push toward an obvious "Blessed Nation" wasn't a primary driver in the shift.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#532

Post by tommilukkarinen » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

Rising standards of living seem to have correlation to suppression of religious instinct.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_instinct

I had difficulties understanding religion, until I had few religious experiences in the span of few years. Looking back, it was most definitely some sort of brain chemistry.

As environment becomes more stable, brain probably has less chances to get into religious channnels.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#533

Post by elcritch » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #428

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

I grew up mainline Protestant too before throwing it away (I was young ~12 which makes it easier). My objection is to the broken nature of the reasoning and how that tends to corrupt evidence based reasoning elsewhere most of them time (though weirdly not always - people are inconsistent). If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? Obviously religious people remain the vast m…

You make strong assertions that would be difficult to prove in general and based on a lot of assumptions (e.g. that materialistic reductionism is the only accurate worldview). I believe the viewpoint you espouse that religious people have broken reasoning is bit myopic in understanding human rationality and intellectual pursuits as well. Humans are complicated as is our understanding of reality we all share.

Good counterpoints are people like Donald E. Knuth, who is a preeminent mathematician, Turing Award recipient, and also a devout Lutheran [1]. He gave a talk on science and religion at Google even that gives a more nuanced view on science and religion [2]. There's also Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome project who is a devout Christian as well. Other non-western examples include Ramanujan who attributed his mathematics to "divinity" [3]. Of course otherwise rational scientists can also become besot with irrational pursuits and beliefs, like Linus Pauling obessions with Vitamin C [4].

More broadly the religious concepts implicit in the Judeo-Christian creation mythos (and other major world religions) also encourage (in many scholars opinions and mine as well) a view that the world is a result of rational thought and not purely a choatic war that man happens to be besot by and perhaps might survive. For example compare the differences of Genesis to the Enuma Elish "There is no suggestion of any primordial battle or internecine war which eventually led to the creation of the universe. The one God is above the whole of nature, which He Himself created by His own absolute will. The primeval water, earth, sky, and luminaries are not pictured as deities or as parts of disembodied deities, but are all parts of the manifold works of the Creator. Man, in turn, is not conceived of as an afterthought, as in Enuma Elish, but rather as the pinnacle of creation." [5]. It's my belief that the inception of science (not mere technologists vs philosophers as the ancient Greeks or Romans had) is encouraged by a societal belief that the world has rational underpinnings and isn't just mad chaos.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPpk-1btGZk 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan 4: https://quackwatch.org/related/pauling/ 5: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/creation-and-cosmogony-...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#534

Post by msla » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

dukeofdoom wrote: post #217

I see religion as being a useful counterbalance to government power. I'm a little concerned how cultish politics is getting in the US. Racism is the new original sin. You can just call anyone racist to publicly condemn them as unforgivable sinners. I was very concerned about Churches being burned down in last year's Riots, the cult of personality around Trump, and the new woke culture that sees individuals as only me…

Historically, religion and government go hand-in-hand, and use each other to reinforce their own power.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#535

Post by brobdingnagians » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

anonAndOn wrote: post #514

The comedian Emo Philips has a well-known joke about religion that may explain some of the decline in membership... "Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me…

And yet our society is more polarized than ever. From your anecdote, one would think that declining religion would result in peace and love overflowing in society, but we see the opposite. Public morality cannot be maintained without religion; we will sadly see the end result of that in coming years.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#536

Post by throwaway0b1 » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #378

throwaway0b1 wrote: post #230

This may be a very bad idea. But as (in the words of the at-present top comment) a fundamentalist adhering to scriptural literalism (aka a conservative Lutheran) [addendum: who does not hate everyone], I feel compelled to offer to answer questions anyone might have for me, so AMA. I don't really want to individually respond to everything throughout the rest of the comments, but I will begin by saying that most church…

A quick google search for 'contradictions in the {bible, new testament, jesus, etc.}' turns up a fair few pages. Viewing them either gives the answer as zero full-stop, or a long list of subject and their relevant citations. In looking at the citations, there does seem to be merit to the contradictory claims. I'll admit that the contradictions are a bit 'small' and may not always alter the main theme or may mix up th…

Looking through the top few, most appear to be intentional misinterpretation, one has to do with much of the Old Testament law not applying in the New Testament (see above or below somewhere), different focuses (i.e. something being mentioned somewhere but not somewhere else doesn't mean it didn't happen, the other may have just had a different focus), etc.; if you have anything specifically you want me to take a look at I can, but it generally seems to be a combination of poor understanding of the Bible, failure to let Scripture interpret Scripture, trying to use the human mind to understand the full mind of God, etc.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#537

Post by 0_____0 » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

brobdingnagians wrote: post #535

anonAndOn wrote: post #514

The comedian Emo Philips has a well-known joke about religion that may explain some of the decline in membership... "Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me…

And yet our society is more polarized than ever. From your anecdote, one would think that declining religion would result in peace and love overflowing in society, but we see the opposite. Public morality cannot be maintained without religion; we will sadly see the end result of that in coming years.

? how do you explain the relative stability of largely secular nations then?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#538

Post by wing-_-nuts » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #440

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would my morals be based on other people's beliefs? They simply boil down to a question of 'does this harm others, in a provable way?'

> They simply boil down to a question of 'does this harm others, in a provable way?' And when there are interest groups pumping money into research to ensure the thing does not harm others in a provable way? It's like cigarettes in the 40s. Tobacco usage was both moral and socially acceptable because big tobacco pumped money into the research to ensure the perception was that it did not cause harm. That was eventuall…

To expand on my moral philosophy, I think someone should be free to do as they please unless there is evidence that it harms someone else. Harm is defined by the preponderance of evidence. A few contrarian papers sponsored by big corporate interests aren't going to change that. I take a fairly firm stance on what constitutes evidence, and when in doubt, lean towards individual freedom over society's view of something.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#539

Post by jariel » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #428

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

I grew up mainline Protestant too before throwing it away (I was young ~12 which makes it easier). My objection is to the broken nature of the reasoning and how that tends to corrupt evidence based reasoning elsewhere most of them time (though weirdly not always - people are inconsistent). If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? Obviously religious people remain the vast m…

" before throwing it away (I was young ~12 which makes it easier). My objection is to the broken nature of the reasoning and how that tends to corrupt evidence based reasoning elsewhere most of them time "

Age 12 is pretty young to come to that conclusion.

Also, it's not about direct rational inquiry, yes it can sometimes a source of aberration, but that would be missing the point.

Spirituality is about who you are, your relationship to the greater good.

'Reasoning' is just a tool of the mind.

Science is a tool, not a Truth.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#540

Post by throwaway0b1 » Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

phd514 wrote: post #526

throwaway0b1 wrote: post #230

This may be a very bad idea. But as (in the words of the at-present top comment) a fundamentalist adhering to scriptural literalism (aka a conservative Lutheran) [addendum: who does not hate everyone], I feel compelled to offer to answer questions anyone might have for me, so AMA. I don't really want to individually respond to everything throughout the rest of the comments, but I will begin by saying that most church…

I think it's helpful to point out that the Bible contains a variety of types of literature including historical narrative, poetry, etc., some of which uses figurative language that is not intended to be taken literally. We all understand this when we use modern language such as "sunrise" which is not literally true (the sun does not actually "rise" in the sky though it appears that way to the casual observer) even th…

Thank you for making this point. It is important to recognize that the Bible does make use of a variety of literary techniques (eg. psalms, parables, etc. especially). However, there are vast swathes of history throughout; it isn't just a book of fictional stories.