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Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

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531–540 of 830 posts

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#531
post #522

So it sounds like lemming group think. It seems like someone one should hold “just in case,” but no real valid reason to do so yet (that I’ve heard). We know transactions are slow and expensive, so it’s not a good replacement for ordinary commerce. It can be used to transfer across borders, but there often is asymmetry in capital movement that makes this difficult in the places you need it most (poor countries with r…

Every minute, there are thousands of bitcoin transactions happening at dozens of exchanges, and it's happening instantly with very low cost. Because it's off-chain. That's what you're missing here, not everything needs to be on-chain to be valuable. Exchanges and businesses and services can aggregate.

But if it's off chain, why use Bitcoin at all?

If you never actually use the blockchain, then you don't really know if those BTC you 'bought' even exist.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#532
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hedging against what? There are plenty of ways to hedge against inflation risk or currency risk without buying into an asset that can lose 50% or more of its value very quickly (and has, a number of times).

How would you suggest hedging against the death of fiat currency without buying a non fiat currency?

> How would you suggest hedging against the death of fiat currency without buying a non fiat currency?

We’re aware there are non-U.S. dollar currencies out there? And non-currency assets one can buy?

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#533
post #329
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plan B's (in)famous model: https://digitalik.net/btc/ Notice how the trend is eerily aligned? Just because you couldn't find it doesn't mean you have to be snarky about it.

Please refrain from assuming that anyone asking a question is being "snarky"

Definition of snarky: critical or mocking in an indirect or sarcastic way.

What you said. The 3rd sentence in particular: I guess when enough people say something it becomes a "fact"

So that was just simply asking a question? No mocking or sarcasm? Without the last sentence you would have just been asking a question. With it, you are being snarky.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#534
post #465
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, Tesla's Bitcoin purchase does make a lot of sense ... They then announced their Bitcoin purchase with fanfare that drove the price up, marking a quick return on their investment. Tesla is a car manufacturer! It doesn't make any sense at all! At any company that made sense, a CEO would lose his job for gambling $1B of company money in a casino totally unrelated to the company's business interests.

Tesla's stock has never been a car manufacturer stock. That's why it has so much short-selling against it. If you value it as a car manufacturer and compare it's (underlying business numbers):(stock price) to anything else, it's insane. "at any company that made sense" is true, to a point. But the point of tesla has been, for a not-insignificant number of people, not meant to make sense. It's faith based. It's cult b…

The challenge for Tesla and Elon is that I don't see the exit strategy? If Elon sells off his Tesla shares in any sizable quantity, it seems the stock would drop massively. If Elon steps down his involvement or passed away, same thing. So it seems it needs to keep on the show until Tesla can actually sustain its value somehow through normal business operations.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#535

So it sounds like lemming group think. It seems like someone one should hold “just in case,” but no real valid reason to do so yet (that I’ve heard). We know transactions are slow and expensive, so it’s not a good replacement for ordinary commerce. It can be used to transfer across borders, but there often is asymmetry in capital movement that makes this difficult in the places you need it most (poor countries with r…

I know you don't control who upvotes your comment, but I find it funny this is the top rated comment.

It has become a total HN cliché that the top comment is a negative takedown of the tech or startup in question. From Dropbox, to Coinbase, to Ethereum, and now to Bitcoin at 50k.

Not refuting anything you're saying here. Just find it amusing to have seen this pattern play out so many times here on HN.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#536
post #336

Bitcoin has been around for a while now and it has been down talked quite a bit on HN whenever it comes up. It now has a larger market cap as Facebook - so the market sees more value in Bitcoin than Facebook. The sentiment on HN seem still be mostly against it whenever it comes up. I wonder why that is? I'd imagine 10 years from now Bitcoin will still be around and likely much larger than today - I'm less positive ab…

My opinion of Bitcoin will change when it stops using more electricity than entire countries, for something Visa can do for comparatively nothing. I would hold the same opinion of any technology which used so much energy when there was a less wasteful alternative. I also happen to be skeptical of Bitcoin's long-term outlook, but that's not why I'm actively against it as a technology. If it wasn't for the planet, I'd…

Visa can't replace Bitcoin because Visa has to obey US and international laws

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#537

So it sounds like lemming group think. It seems like someone one should hold “just in case,” but no real valid reason to do so yet (that I’ve heard). We know transactions are slow and expensive, so it’s not a good replacement for ordinary commerce. It can be used to transfer across borders, but there often is asymmetry in capital movement that makes this difficult in the places you need it most (poor countries with r…

Its got momentum as a crypto, in theory it could update itself to whatever would start being more valuable if needed.

Also, I don't know if all investment need to make sense based on economic fundamentals, bitcoin makes sense at a psychological level why it is a good investment for now, as more and more people slowly decide they need to dip their toes in it as well.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#538
post #361
post #336

Bitcoin has been around for a while now and it has been down talked quite a bit on HN whenever it comes up. It now has a larger market cap as Facebook - so the market sees more value in Bitcoin than Facebook. The sentiment on HN seem still be mostly against it whenever it comes up. I wonder why that is? I'd imagine 10 years from now Bitcoin will still be around and likely much larger than today - I'm less positive ab…

I agree that Bitcoin is here to stay and has utility. The issues that I have are 1) It is volatile and impossible to value; any price is as reasonable as any other. What is my benchmark here? The amount of USD in circulation? The value of outstanding U.S. Government debt? (if it is indeed going to replace Treasuries as reserve currency / safe haven asset). Can someone more knowledgable than me chime in? 2) Its utilit…

All currencies are volatile against other currencies.

Volatility of currency goes away (or rather, gets abstracted) within the context of locales where that currency is used as a unit of account and goods and services are directly priced in it. So far, this hasn't happened yet for bitcoin, because there is no central authority forcing it upon people.

Nobody knows if, when, where, or how this unit of account transition will happen. Maybe Tesla prices the new roadster or cybertruck in bitcoin as a publicity stunt that starts a cascade. Maybe some country with a failing currency decides to issue a new currency backed with bitcoin, or their people start using it without permission and pricing emerges organically. Maybe Iran, Turkey, Venezuela, North Korea, Syria, and Cuba start using it as their currency for international trade.

Or maybe it never will become a unit of account, and bitcoin will just find a role as an inflation hedge and long term store of value like gold, which is currently 10x as valuable as bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#540
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also still wrapping my head around this just like you, but I think I understand enough to answer some of your questions. > We know transactions are slow and expensive, so it’s not a good replacement for ordinary commerce. I don't think that this is obviously true. Digital transfer of the US Dollar is similarly slow and expensive (see: ACH, Wire, SWIFT). The response you'll hear the most frequently is that BTC (an…

> Digital transfer of the US Dollar is similarly slow and expensive And with ACH, wires, swift, the slowness is a feature not a bug. It's one of the ways fraud is combated, for example. I seriously doubt it's fundamentally a technical limitation of the technology used, but rather a choice. But as you said people aren't doing this with BTC -- and if they're not, then this removes one of the use cases that would warran…

> It's one of the ways fraud is combated, for example. I seriously doubt it's fundamentally a technical limitation of the technology used, but rather a choice.

I know the payments industry pretty well, and I can assure you that the limitations of ACH are NOT a choice in the least. It’s a system that was designed in the ‘60s that hasn’t changed simply due to institutional inertia.

> But as you said people aren't doing this with BTC -- and if they're not, then this removes one of the use cases that would warrant it's value, so you're only arguing my point.

They’re not doing it yet, but just this week we’ve got MasterCard, Visa, and Morgan Stanley announcing their plans to support cryptocurrencies, especially on the merchant-services side. Supporting this does not remove the existing value, it simply reinforces it. Just like the US dollar, you can either transact with people purely on trust-driven centralized services (and enjoy the convenience that such services allow) or you can “withdraw” some of that “cash” and “mail” it to people in a trustless way (albeit very slightly less conveniently).

> You also seem to forget about checks

Checks only partially solve the problem that I described. First of all, you can't take a check and chop it into pieces and use those pieces as tender; you have to cash the check eventually. In contrast, you can spend the Bitcoin you receive to anyone that willingly accepts it either in full or in part.

Second of all, while checks provide the functionality that "mailing cash via USPS" provides, it's equally cumbersome. If I want to donate $$ to a political dissident that's been canceled off of every platform, it would be quite annoying to find my checkbook, write the check, and then send it to that person. If I wanted this to be a recurring donation, it'd be even worse. That brings me to the next point...

> no one ever sends bricks of cash in USPS unless you're a drug dealer running a YOLO life. But you also ignore ACH/wires/credit cards and all the ways most money moves today. What is the fundamental issue there that Bitcoin solves?

The fundamental issue that this specific use case solves is that it allows one to transact with people even if the traditional rails disallow it. For example, if you want to donate money to your favorite porn star on PornHub or OnlyFans, it's impossible to do that via Visa/MasterCard/Amex/PayPal as these financial institutions have all blocked such services. Or perhaps a somewhat more topical use case: if you want to use and support services like Gab or Parler who are effectively persona non grata in the tech world, there is essentially no way to do this via the traditional payments rails. Crypto solves this problem in a way that's relatively more user friendly than mailing cash or checks.

If you lived your life on cryptocurrencies, you could transact day-to-day using your Visa branded card at your coffee shop (eventually settled on the blockchain), or you can “withdraw” some “cash” into a separate wallet and set up recurring donations on-chain. A few hours of automated asynchronicity is far less cumbersome than manually cutting, writing, and mailing checks every month.

> You're right, however regulations exist that enforce institutions use USD. Those are largely good things.

Correct, and in the worst case, it’s good that we have a fallback legal tender! But it’s also good that there are now more options in addition. With pegged stablecoins, it’s becoming easier to interoperate with USD.

> Being global means there's no local way to adjust things to current circumstances. Just look at Greece in the EU -- because they went on the Euro, with a totally different economy than Western Europe, they got all of the deflation with a GDP that couldn't keep up, and as they piled on the debt they didn't have any levers to pull. Unifying global currency is a terrible idea when you have very uneven economic realities around the globe.

I think that there are several assumptions baked into this argument that won't necessarily hold true. First of all, I don't think anyone believes that there will ever be one and only one global currency. Instead, the paradigm that's being challenged here is that, at a local level, you might no longer be forced to use one and only one currency. In the "new world" you might imagine a market of currencies with the option to use whichever you want to. If you think your government is being callous with its monetary policy, you can seek refuge in other currencies with little difficulty and even coexist with others that use different currencies. A lot of the new decentralized finance applications seem to be focusing on providing interoperability between multiple blockchains (Uniswap, Cosmos) as well as fiat currencies (via pegged stablecoins).

I think you're right that it remains to be seen if any of this will succeed or come to pass, but it's too early to say that it will fail. We're either in the mainframe era of cryptocurrencies, or we’re in the Concorde era of cryptocurrencies. Impossible to know which it is, at this moment.

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