Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy • Hacker News Board

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#531

Post by ashtonkem » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #529

ashtonkem wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's valid to protest things which are not true? If you set the bar at "your point has to be true before you can protest", then goodbye free speech. Because who exactly gets to decide what is true, and therefore is legitimate to protest over? The government? The media? That is an insanely dangerous power to give any institution, which is why the first amendment is purposefully interpreted to put the minimum number…

"If you set the bar at "your point has to be true before you can protest", then goodbye free speech." This is not true at all. These arguments are purposefully conflating 'speech and protest' with the right to block traffic and infringe on other people's rights. You can 100% stand in front of city hall to tell us about 'Alien Invasions' if you want. You can 100% not block traffic to do it. You have more opportunities…

That is literally a different argument though.

Now you're arguing about the difference between civil disobedience (which necessarily involves breaking norms or laws) and simple protest. This is a fair distinction, but genuinely a tedious one. Yes, standing around in the street is illegal, that's the point. We're not going to work out anything new here that hasn't been discussed over the past century.

What I'm reacting to is you setting the bar based on the content of the speech. That is super dangerous territory, one that I would strongly condemn. The moment you say that tactics become legitimate or illegitimate based on the content of the speech, which is something the highlighted quote was saying, then you're heading into the land of no more free speech.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#532

Post by donjoe » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

cyberdrunk wrote: post #521

donjoe wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a problem of houses built that way since the were built pre-car times to allow max light into apartments. The streets back then were also a social aspect of life where we met people and could interact with each other. Then came a time we handed over streets to parking spots and some folks driving at 50km/h and faster. Social aspects have been gone. We should not build our apts for cars and align to them.…

> This is not a problem of houses built that way since the were built pre-car times to allow max light into apartments Not the case in most of Europe IMO. The apartment buildings were built along very narrow streets to either fit inside perimeter of city walls or (later) because real estate was expensive. Due to narrowness of roads, these apartments are not very well lit and are depressing (you can't see the sky thro…

Social aspects in the sense of that we nowadays use them for cars only. Back in the days people traded on streets, had cafes and social interactions. Kids could play football and learn how to cycle. That's all used up by cars with all the externalities that comes with it such as dirt, noise, wasted space, deaths by accidents and air pollution.

Not to forget: streets were used that way until ~80 years ago. We just can't remember them any different any more.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#533

Post by CydeWeys » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 3:24 PM UTC

Gwypaas wrote: post #374

CydeWeys wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an urban legend debunked in the linked Wikipedia article: "According to urban legend, early regulations required that one out of every five miles of the Interstate Highway System must be built straight and flat, so as to be usable by aircraft during times of war. There is no evidence of this rule being included in any Interstate legislation." The Eisenhower Interstate Highway System is designed for military p…

It has some merit. Sweden built an entire system based on road bases to deter any invasion attempts from the Soviets, including aircraft able to operate out of them. Still happen upon them to this day, just notice the road get straighter and a tiny bit wider. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas_90

I'm not saying it doesn't have merit or isn't true of other countries, just pointing out that it's not true of the United States. The US is a lot different from Sweden in two salient points here -- we're much bigger, and we're protected by entire oceans from potential enemies on all sides.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#534

Post by austincheney » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #530

austincheney wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do understand how what you perceive and what they intend are different things, right? If the protestors are utterly incapable of bridging that gap it doesn't matter what their intentions are as they are failing to win hearts and minds. That leap you speak to is only a minor baby step. If they really wanted to convince me of the value of their message they could start by not intentionally pissing me off. This is…

> That leap you speak to is only a minor baby step. It absolutely is not a baby step. In fact it is a really big deal to jump from your own experience to assuming the intent of other people . That is actually a really fast way to anger people in my experience, because it requires that you pretend that you understand what is going on in another person's head. Saying "your actions caused X" is pretty straightforward, b…

> It absolutely is not a baby step. In fact it is a really big deal to jump from your own experience to assuming the intent of other people. That is actually a really fast way to anger people in my experience, because it requires that you pretend that you understand what is going on in another person's head.

That is not correct. If you are blocking a freeway causing hours of traffic delays then I am not making assumptions about what's in somebody else's head. I don't care what their intentions are. They have made me disgruntled and digusted with their protest message completely alienating me from their cause. From that moment forward I would vote against and fund in opposition to everything they advocate.

As the audience all that matters is what's in my head, which I don't have to guess at. The inability for people to accept that reality tells me the things they are protesting about aren't important to them.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#535

Post by CydeWeys » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 3:35 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #530

austincheney wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do understand how what you perceive and what they intend are different things, right? If the protestors are utterly incapable of bridging that gap it doesn't matter what their intentions are as they are failing to win hearts and minds. That leap you speak to is only a minor baby step. If they really wanted to convince me of the value of their message they could start by not intentionally pissing me off. This is…

> That leap you speak to is only a minor baby step. It absolutely is not a baby step. In fact it is a really big deal to jump from your own experience to assuming the intent of other people . That is actually a really fast way to anger people in my experience, because it requires that you pretend that you understand what is going on in another person's head. Saying "your actions caused X" is pretty straightforward, b…

And even if he personally is turned off the issue at hand because he experiences some personal convenience, so what? He's not the target audience of the protests, just collateral "damage" (if you can even call it that). Government officials and all the millions of people reached by news media coverage of the protests are the real target audience. And you can't deny that it's working; year-on-year nationwide opinion polls show an astounding reversal from majority disapproval of the Black Lives Matter movement to majority approval. It's been the most successful modern protest movement going possibly all the way back to the 70s.

So who fucking cares if some people got stuck in traffic. The protests are working, and the people who weren't even stuck in traffic but are complaining anyway because they hypothetically could have been (like this guy) should just be roundly ignored. Listening to their opinions is a terrible idea if your actual intent is to further the movement.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#536

Post by pfraze » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 3:36 PM UTC

S_A_P wrote: post #510

pfraze wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Houston is by far one of the most diverse areas I’ve ever visited in the US, up there with NYC.

And look at that- my cousin has joined the discussion.

What up, Craig!

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#537

Post by CydeWeys » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 3:40 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #534

ashtonkem wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That leap you speak to is only a minor baby step. It absolutely is not a baby step. In fact it is a really big deal to jump from your own experience to assuming the intent of other people . That is actually a really fast way to anger people in my experience, because it requires that you pretend that you understand what is going on in another person's head. Saying "your actions caused X" is pretty straightforward, b…

> It absolutely is not a baby step. In fact it is a really big deal to jump from your own experience to assuming the intent of other people. That is actually a really fast way to anger people in my experience, because it requires that you pretend that you understand what is going on in another person's head. That is not correct. If you are blocking a freeway causing hours of traffic delays then I am not making assump…

The protests are working. It doesn't matter if you hypothetically would be pissed off about being stuck in traffic because of one, they are demonstrably working. So they absolutely continue despite your objections. See:

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/502267-support-for-black-l...

https://news.gallup.com/poll/317321/believe-protest-actions-...

I think you should take a step back and really consider why you're arguing so vociferously over hypothetically being caught in traffic because of a protest when there are much larger issues at play here.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#538

Post by sfkdjf9j3j » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 3:44 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #503

pmontra wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Milan, Italy, here. I can reach 4 supermarkets in at most 10 minutes, walking from my home. Of course I never go there by car, it would take more time. Probably it's the same in many areas of NYC or SF (been there some 20 years ago.) But if you move into the suburbs or away from the largest cities even Italy it's a cars only country. Sure, every small town has its elementary school, parks and play areas but you can't…

> Of course I never go there by car Do you carry your groceries, or have like a cart? I always end up with several trips to my car worth of groceries to last a week.

Because grocery stores (and specialized stores such as butchers or farmers markets etc.) are more accessible, people in cities often buy only a few meals of ingredients at a time. It's easy to stop by a store and pick up some some amount of fresh whatever as you go about your day.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#539

Post by CydeWeys » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 3:46 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #314

CydeWeys wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a horrid comparison to make between those crimes and a constitutionally-guaranteed right.

Would the moral status of rape, or, say, slavery be any greater if it was written into the Constitution? (Note that one of those was , extensively, written into the Constitution.) If not, what is the point of your argument?

You're just continuing the horrid comparison of somehow equating people exercising free speech with heinous crimes. Stop it. It's not a good look nor a valid argument.

I'm not even going to waste my time explaining how free speech is different morally from rape, because I guarantee that this is crystal clear to everyone else except for you somehow.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#540

Post by ashtonkem » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #534

ashtonkem wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That leap you speak to is only a minor baby step. It absolutely is not a baby step. In fact it is a really big deal to jump from your own experience to assuming the intent of other people . That is actually a really fast way to anger people in my experience, because it requires that you pretend that you understand what is going on in another person's head. Saying "your actions caused X" is pretty straightforward, b…

> It absolutely is not a baby step. In fact it is a really big deal to jump from your own experience to assuming the intent of other people. That is actually a really fast way to anger people in my experience, because it requires that you pretend that you understand what is going on in another person's head. That is not correct. If you are blocking a freeway causing hours of traffic delays then I am not making assump…

That’s literally a different argument. You’ve moved from “they’re intending to cause harm to people like me” to “I believe this tactic alienates people like me”.

As I’ve said repeatedly, the latter is an argument about the efficacy of this type of protest. You’re free to believe that, I don’t care. But understand that “it doesn’t work” is a completely unrelated argument from “its intended to do X”.