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Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

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Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#531

Post by imetatroll »

kikoreis wrote: post #513
shock wrote: post #421

I am very diligent about applying updates as soon as I'm able and generally read the changelogs of the updates I'm applying in Ubuntu's Software Updater. One thing I will not do is willingly allow somebody else a way to deploy and execute code on my computer without my say so (which snap is). After reading the whole thread at https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... and seeing Gustavo Niemeyer'…

It's probably not a surprise to you, but this is a hotly debated topic inside Canonical. And I apologize for that thread, as it really doesn't represent our best attempt at external debate. Changing a paradigm usually involves pushing the envelope and breaking some existing assumptions; systemd is everybody's favorite example of that in the Linux world. The root of this issue with snaps is the trade-off between built…

The the very least there should be a simple way to turn off snaps entirely. As in, when installing do we want any snaps? If we don't, don't even install the snap ecosystem. After install, have I decided I don't want snaps? If so, uninstall the entire ecosystem.

Do these options currently exist?

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#532

Post by heavyset_go »

shock wrote: post #421

I am very diligent about applying updates as soon as I'm able and generally read the changelogs of the updates I'm applying in Ubuntu's Software Updater. One thing I will not do is willingly allow somebody else a way to deploy and execute code on my computer without my say so (which snap is). After reading the whole thread at https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... and seeing Gustavo Niemeyer'…

This attitude extends to other areas of the project, like the fact that you can't move or rename ~/snap. Developers don't care that not only are there users who would like to be able change it, but that there is a freedesktop.org spec that they aren't following.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#533

Post by zozbot234 »

jasonjayr wrote: post #527
littlestymaar wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debian used not to work easily on hardware that require proprietary drivers, did it change recently ? I left Ubuntu almost ten years ago, after 5 years of using it, when they started using MIR instead of Gnome2 and I replaced it with Linux Mint and I haven't looked back. This whole snap thing looks like the new weird decision made by Canonical to make their faithful users leave :/

Debian runs on everything I've come in contact with, or virtualized. Debian's problem is that it's stodgy updating policy means 'Stable' is still on 4.19, things like Wireguard require a simple, but odd procedure to request apt pull packages from newer releases, and most of the copy/pasteable examples out there assume Ubuntu, and their versions/customization to critical infrastructure packages. IMHO, the stodgy updat…

> things like Wireguard require a simple, but odd procedure to request apt pull packages from newer releases

That's not a good idea, as it breaks the assurance that Debian Stable provides. Using the backports repository is the recommended approach if you need a newer version of some clearly-defined piece of software. It will pull the newer dependencies it requires from backports, while still relying on stock-provided packages as far as practicable.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#534

Post by dreamcompiler »

konart wrote: post #374
nromiun wrote: post #285

> Snap applications auto-update and that’s fine if Ubuntu wants to keep systems secure. But it can’t even be turned off manually. OMG. Is this real? This is the exact reason I use Linux instead of Windows 10 or macOS. I am not a grandma who can't stay up to date on tech news. At the least there should be a toggle for power users. But no, you can only defer it. Am I the only one who doesn't like it when your already s…

>This is the exact reason I use Linux instead of Windows 10 or macOS Not sure about win10, but macOS won't autoupdate apps if you turned it off. If the app is not from an app store - it's up to the devs to have option to (auto) update. Most apps allow you to turn autoupdate off (in fact I can't think of single one without this option)

> Most apps allow you to turn autoupdate off (in fact I can't think of single one without this option)

Every MacOS app from Google auto-updates. You can turn it off iff you have hacker skills. The average user can't do it.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#535

Post by wstuartcl »

ptx wrote: post #402
ordinaryperson wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My position is not that certain users would prefer to update on their own schedule. Of course there are. Or that new updates sometimes break things and that's a hassle. Of course they do and it is. The problem is if you want to distribute an important security update, what do you do? Ask everyone nicely to upgrade? How? Again, what % of users will manually update their software? Not a lot. For #2, that seems like a r…

> The problem is if you want to distribute an important security update, what do you do? Ask everyone nicely to upgrade? What the application author wants isn't all that matters. It's the user's system, so they install what they want when they want to. Ensuring that the user can easily install important updates while preserving the overall order of the system is the job of the disto maintainers for the distro the use…

This. It is of no concern what the developer wants -- it is the USER's system. If there is a reason I want to be backreved on app or library XY or Z it is my concern. This is really the most bone headed change I have seen from ubuntu.

It is "fine" to make auto updates the default. It is "not fine" to make it the only option.

Have some respect for your userbase. Who was the bonehead that make this call -- so stupid.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#536

Post by ordinaryperson »

pessimizer wrote: post #386
ordinaryperson wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Auto updates have existed long before Windows 10. It's great that you are diligent about updating your software regularly. But how many people do? If you agree that it's a low percentage, then why is not better for the ecosystem as a whole to improve security and compatibility?

If you're making up percentages of people who update when they see an icon and a message telling them updates are available, asking other people to make up their own numbers, then deciding that we should make decisions based on these made-up numbers, I think you're on the wrong track. How often Ubuntu users who turn auto-update off manually update themselves is an actual thing that can be researched. It's disappointi…

I'm "making up" numbers? What would you call this? https://theconversation.com/the-petya-ransomware-attack-show...

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#537

Post by ordinaryperson »

CathedralBorrow wrote: post #456
ordinaryperson wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Auto updates have existed long before Windows 10. It's great that you are diligent about updating your software regularly. But how many people do? If you agree that it's a low percentage, then why is not better for the ecosystem as a whole to improve security and compatibility?

This percentage seems to be the crux of your argument so I'm curious to know what it is. Are you relying on any data?

Pretty simple Google search: https://theconversation.com/the-petya-ransomware-attack-show...

Many more examples.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#538

Post by m463 »

_lbaq wrote: post #355
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree entirely. Unavoidable updates were one of the key factors in my choice to avoid Windows 10 for business-critical computing. I standardized on Ubuntu instead, but this could be a deal-breaker for me. I hope Canonical fixes this immediately. I'm not eager to spend time re-researching to market for a suitable OS.

Just disable snapd after you have achieved your ideal configuration. But yes, this should be a setting somewhere...

I tried to uninstall snapd on 18.04 and it broke the desktop.

I tried to disable it from systemd, but it had some weird way of relaunching itself.

just do a web search on disabling snapd to see how many people want to do this.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#539

Post by cglong »

gfxgirl wrote: post #333
bdamm wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not insecure-by-default, that's just you having a (legitimate) issue with the distribution chain. Insecure-by-default is installing software that has known weaknesses. That the process doesn't work for you doesn't mean the software is weak.

Are they sandboxed individually? If not it's insecure by default. I mostly don't mind auto-updates on iOS and maybe Android as they're at least supposed to be each app sandboxed by default. MacOS is getting better at this. Windows sucks at it. Where is snaps on that spectrum?

Actually Windows has been ahead of macOS for years in this area. The latest iteration of this technology on Windows is called MSIX: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/overview#benef...
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