Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#531

Post by reaperducer » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:31 PM UTC

nieve wrote: post #441

darkerside wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that they are different, but maybe not as different as you think they are. > If amazon copied all your proprietary data, you would almost certainly never notice, no criminal law would apply, and you'd have a hell of a time proving it in a civil suit. If Amazon were doing this and profiting from it, that would essentially be a criminal conspiracy that reaches to the leadership of the company. Is it possib…

Criminal conspiracies by corporate execs are not all uncommon in the history of business and presuming that you can't possibly run into one because you personally haven't is taking an unnecessary risk. One thing due diligence is supposed to look for is criminal behavior. This is not because they never find it.

Criminal conspiracies by corporate execs are not all uncommon in the history of business

Actually, they are quite uncommon, which is why they make headlines when discovered.

I'm not taking a side here, just pointing out a fallacy.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#532

Post by joyj2nd » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

RandomBacon wrote: post #477

joyj2nd wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, sorry, I meant from a buyer perspective. As a side node: I am actually thinking of buying a tiny bankrupt travel equipment company. Friends advised against it because of "Amazon essentials". I would not sell on Amazon but it is a strong argument. Maybe someone has some words of wisdom regarding to this.

> bankrupt What do they have that you want, or what do you think you're going to do differently? Why did it go bankrupt? If they claim it's only bankrupt because of COVID-19, then it must not have been very profitable (if at all) if they didn't have enough money to weather out at least 3 months. So I recommend not accepting that explanation.

They were "bankrupt" before. They just selling what is left of the stock.

I was always impressed by the quality of their products. It is a comparatively "old" company, they produce their stuff in Eastern Europe, not Asia.

Why they did not sell?

1. Their webpage looks like from the 90ies

2. No marketing. I think I can solve this, I also have contacts with some small travel agencies. I am sure they would be interested in some affiliate scheme.

3. Has also some niche products where I have contacts in the US (Military, dogs etc.)

Biggest problem is to convince the guy to either sell or take on partners.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#533

Post by julianlam » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:34 PM UTC

theturtletalks wrote: post #455

This is the exact reason why Shopify grew rapidly. Sellers knew they needed a platform where they own the data and could abstract the operations outside of Amazon seller dashboard. People also forget that Amazon doesn't have to pay to advertise its own products, but 3rd party sellers do. This immediately puts you at a disadvantage if you want your product at the top since you pay seller commission and advertising fee…

> Next time you want to buy something from Amazon, I would encourage you to find the seller's website directly or find them on eBay. eBay charges less seller fees and is not in the business of selling products directly.

Last time I bought an item off eBay, it arrived shipped via Amazon Prime. Pretty sure the seller just bought it off Amazon and shipped it to my house... it was a weird turn of events.

It wasn't a branded item, just a third-party battery replacement for a cordless phone, but still.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#534

Post by MisterBastahrd » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

How Wal-Mart of them.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#535

Post by xyzzyz » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

Ensorceled wrote: post #516

missedthecue wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really in the spirit of anti competitive laws if the consumer wins? This is more like one business owner (FBA seller) trying to sic the authorities on their competition (Amazon Basics) in order to keep a competitive advantage. This seems more anti competitive than what Amazon is doing

Yes. Anti-monopoly laws are about overall society health, not just consumer protection. Having only a few large companies controlling large segments has massive negative effects on suppliers, employee wages, etc. etc.

You might wish that this was the case, but in the US, the anti-trust law doesn't work this way.

The law doesn't prohibit monopoly by itself. Monopolization is only prohibited if it restrains trade, or if the monopoly position was improperly gained. If Amazon attains monopoly position through superior products, innovation, or business acumen, it is very much legal in the US[1].

I think it's hard to argue that Amazon undercutting the participants in its marketplace is restraining the trade: the complaint here is, as I understand it, that through better knowledge of the market, and better integrated and more efficient platform, it is able to offer same or better products at lower prices. I can't see how it restrains the trade, according to how FTC understands it. It would only be illegal if Amazon did sold these products below their own costs, and then planned to recoup the losses by raising the price after the competition is gone. I haven't seen any evidence that this is what's going on.

[1] - https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#536

Post by FridgeSeal » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

claytongulick wrote: post #483

Tostino wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost like there should probably be some oversight on one of the most powerful entities on the planet to stop these anti-competitive practices.

Or, markets will shift away from abuse, and they will have difficulty regaining customer trust cough Blockbuster Video cough

“Don’t worry guys! The magical invisible hand of the market will fix this! Just like how it stopped abuse and exploitation by itself all those other times! This time it will _definitely_ work”

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#537

Post by heyoni » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

adamc wrote: post #523

reaperducer wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think store brands are sitting side by side with name brands? Based on my last trip to the supermarket, absolutely. The stores have to put their brand next to the name-brand, or nobody will see their stuff. They can't just shove the name brand items to the bottom of the shelf because the brands have done all of the advertising, and those are the logos, colors, and packaging that people are looking for.

Yeah, this. I often buy house brands of things like Ibuprofen (same stuff, but cheaper), but they absolutely put it next to the well-advertised brands, because otherwise finding it would be a nightmare and nobody would bother. Display in a store is much more limited than online. They have to put like items together if they want customers to find them.

Then that's even worse! They're counting on the fact that you're going to look at one item, to make you see theirs. The point isn't that Amazon is great, it's just that stores do the exact same dumb shit and we've grown accustomed to it.

Why the sudden outrage?

PS: I didn't read the article because of what I consider an even more grotesque form of consumer manipulation...blocking your news website from displaying the full article unless you interact with it, and breaking reader mode so that you have to see their ads/graphics. I'd get my pitchfork out for that.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#538

Post by gundmc » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:39 PM UTC

viahoptop wrote: post #449

What is the difference between this and the store brands at supermarkets?

Traditional retailers buy their inventory from manufacturers to place on the shelf and in turn sell to customers. There may be some agreements on buying back unsold inventory, but generally the retailer takes on risk for the inventory they are selling.

Amazon, conversely, only provides the platform connecting manufacturers to customers. They may hold consigned inventory in their warehouse, but they typically don't take on the risk for any unsold stock.

This is a big difference between grocery private labels and Amazon basics. Amazon is reaping the benefits without taking on any of the risk.

Disclaimer: I don't work in retail, this is my understanding based on reading but I could be mistaken.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#539

Post by _0ffh » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:41 PM UTC

Guest42 wrote: post #530

alaskamiller wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Shopify you don't pay ~20% sales commission to Amazon per se, but you sure as heck will end up paying for that if not more to Facebook. Where by FB has no direct incentive, yet. It could be a FB Marketplace PM team someone has already copied Shopify outright and is just waiting for the right time to roll that out to all FB user worldwide. With Amazon Marketplace the strategy has always been to convert customers…

Does amazon allow seller sites to have lower prices?

Not afaik.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#540

Post by repiret » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 10:46 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #305

repiret wrote: post #81

every major retailer has store brands, and I fully expect they all use their sales data to inform their generic products business, and all of their suppliers expect that too. As a consumer, I like that Amazon is upfront about what products come from their brand. Good luck browsing through the plumbing and electrical fixtures at Home Depot or Lowes and figuring out what crappy store brand stuff and whats not.

(1) it's not just about generic products. Amazon uses the same approach to decide what non-generic products it should become a direct seller of, potentially (and normally) negatively impacting 3rd party sellers. (2) HD and Lowes have almost no generic/store brand stuff at all. There are a few exceptions, and they likely do represent fairly profitable sections of their overall business. The main ones I am aware of: li…

(1) You don't think HD and Lowes and Safeway and Walmart and every big retailer doesn't use their sales data to decide which products to try to disintermediate distributors and other middle-men in the supply chain?

(2) I'll concede HD and Lowes have a lot of departments without store brands [1], but raise you the local grocery store, which doesn't.

[1]: The pattern I see is that the stuff marketed mostly to contractors is less likely to be infected with crappy store brands than the stuff marked mostly to DIY'ers. I suspect its in part because pros will learn whats quality and whats crap a lot faster than DIYers, because the latter only buy a ceiling fan or whatever once a decade.