How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer • Hacker News Board

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#531

Post by aembleton » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

brentonator wrote: post #82

soyyo wrote: post #30

I worked on amp for a leading newspaper, and everyone who says that amp is about "making the web faster on mobile" is either very naive or doing marketing for google. For publishers, amp is about trying to top the results on google search and capture traffic, it's their only motivation to publish their content using amp, and the only metric they look in order to evaluate the results. Once they have their amp content,…

I invite you to go to your local Fox/ABC/CBS channel's website and TRY to read an article vs AMP. AMP is about stopping....that. It's indescribable how horrible these companies have become. 1. Auto-playing ads 2. Scroll-jacking 3. Overlay...after overlay... after overlay. 4. Popover 5. Paywall 6. Popover again for good taste. 7. Oops you scrolled too far better redirect you to another page entirely. 8. You wanted the…

Can probably solve all of that by switching off Javascript.

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#532

Post by dang » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

dmitriid wrote: post #470

dang wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal attacks will get you banned here, so please don't post like this. We've asked you more than once, including https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19811041 . https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: between the parent comment and these, you were outright harassing another user: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21716790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21716648 And you did it here too: htt…

The fact that these users work for Google and/or on the AMP team is stated in their profiles. However, as is almost universally the case, they never disclose it in the AMP discussions. And how many people go and check other users' profiles? This is important info considering the moral and technical gray area of AMP. We've seen members of the AMP team discuss AMP "in good faith" here while shutting down any questions…

Plenty of users check other users' profiles, just as you did.

I don't know about AMP discussions elsewhere, but HN is certainly not shutting them down. We've had two huge threads in the last two days (this one and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21703345), and half a dozen other ones this year alone. That makes it an extremely well-covered topic here. In fact, HN moderators usually downweight threads that relitigate already-well-covered topics, and we do that less in this case. Most likely there are many HN users who are tired of these AMP debates, since they're not used to seeing so much repetition here.

Debate is fine, attacking other users breaks the site guidelines, we ban accounts that do that, please don't.

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#533

Post by lern_too_spel » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #521

lern_too_spel wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, as you have repeatedly shown you already know, AMP pages are a constrained HTML that supports safe prerendering. Why ask a question you already know the answer to?

> AMP pages are a constrained HTML that supports safe prerendering Then they're not HTML, are they? As other commenters have pointed out, nobody is using the constrained set of AMP as their main page, precisely because it's not "just HTML". (And specifically, Google controls which subset of HTML this is.)

> Then they're not HTML, are they?

A square has four sides that are equal length. Does that make it not a rectangle?

> As other commenters have pointed out, nobody is using the constrained set of AMP as their main page

People don't use squares where they need oblong rectangles, but that doesn't mean squares are not rectangles.

> And specifically, Google controls which subset of HTML this is.

No, the technical steering committee of the AMP project at the OpenJS Foundation determines that. Most of the members of that committee do not work for Google.

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#534

Post by lern_too_spel » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #269

lern_too_spel wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMP is fast because it prerenders. That is the main point of AMP, and you seemingly don't understand it after working on it. It amazes me how little developers understand their platforms these days.

Please don't cross into personal attack. Your comment would be fine with just the first sentence, or if it stopped before "you seemingly". There's no need for supercilious disses of "developers" either. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

That soyyo, like the article's author, seemingly does not understand that AMP enables prerendering is simply stating a fact. In soyyo's comment, there is no place where soyyo shows any understanding that this is the thing that AMP was designed to do.

When I continued with my general statement about developers not understanding their platforms, I can see how that can be interpreted as a personal attack, and for that I apologise to soyyo and to the readers of this forum.

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#535

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #533

saagarjha wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AMP pages are a constrained HTML that supports safe prerendering Then they're not HTML, are they? As other commenters have pointed out, nobody is using the constrained set of AMP as their main page, precisely because it's not "just HTML". (And specifically, Google controls which subset of HTML this is.)

> Then they're not HTML, are they? A square has four sides that are equal length. Does that make it not a rectangle? > As other commenters have pointed out, nobody is using the constrained set of AMP as their main page People don't use squares where they need oblong rectangles, but that doesn't mean squares are not rectangles. > And specifically, Google controls which subset of HTML this is. No, the technical steerin…

> People don't use squares where they need oblong rectangles, but that doesn't mean squares are not rectangles.

You're omitting the context of that quote for trite point-scoring. If I was advertised a browser that "supported HTML" I would very reasonably expect that it had a reasonable set of features, perhaps score well on compatibility benchmarks, and in general make an effort to conform to the relevant standards. If all it did was render

tags it would still be technically correct (it supports HTML!) but I would rightfully be less than pleased.

> No, the technical steering committee of the AMP project at the OpenJS Foundation determines that. Most of the members of that committee do not work for Google.

As I have pointed out to you previously (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20731535; I regret the typo), Google has extremely strong control over the Technical Steering Committee; while you are again correct to claim that they do not have a majority position, it would require unanimous coalition of every other member to oppose them.

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#536

Post by wizzwizz4 » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 8:05 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #282

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google AMP mostly just reduces the latency by pre-loading the pages from Google Search results. That has the side-effect of increasing the traffic on networks using Google Search when Google AMP results come up on the Google Search results, which they probably will given that using Google AMP will improve the site's Google Search ranking. I haven't benchmarked it, so I can't actually speak from anything but wild spec…

I gave it a try. So I searched for "Trump" in Safari mobile, the result page loaded 2.5mb. It loaded a bit more when I clicked on an AMP article and kept loading more as I jump from article to article. It did not load any data without me switching to the next article. After 10 articles, the transferred data was 28MB. I visited the Guardian's own website and it fetched 3MB. So, It looks like Google does not preload a…

I do know it preloads on Chrome on Android on mobile networks, but it's a little surprising that it doesn't on Safari on iOS.

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#537

Post by lillecarl » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 8:59 PM UTC

JoshMnem wrote: post #450

gregable wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The behavior you describe occurs if the useragent blocks the URL https://cdn.ampproject.org/v0.js which does not have anything to do with ads or analytics. Certainly an ad blocker can be used to block any URL, but I don't know of any that block this one by default. If there are any, let me know and I'm happy to file issues to get that fixed! If a user chooses to block this particular resource which the page needs to…

People who block JS by default but who don't want to completely turn off JavaScript encounter that 8-second delay. (I'm using "ad-blocker" loosely -- it refers to any kind of tool that blocks ads and tracking. On my computer, it's blocked at the hosts level in addition to an add-on.) Some people don't want to load resources from Google's servers, and they shouldn't be punished for it. That JS file isn't needed for AM…

Couldn't this be solved by the adblockers by injecting some JS to change this?

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#538

Post by feanaro » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

NegativeK wrote: post #457

feanaro wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal people know how to use Firefox which has it built-in.

Most people don't go that route because they have more important things going on in their lives. AMP isn't about solving one-offs or making users improve their own experience. It's about improving most people's experience by default. I don't like AMP, it frustrates me, and I think Google's fucking up in their implementation, but it actually _does_ do a good thing.

Changing your browser is a pretty simple operation if you're not an advanced user who has to replicate his intricate workflow. A large number of people have done it at least once in their lives.

I also don't think we should simply say "it does a good thing". That would mean we are consciously choosing to concentrate on the good aspects while deliberately ignoring the bad ones.

AMP does have good sides, but this is what makes it especially dangerous. Hijacking web sites by fronting them from another unrelated domain is completely completely unacceptable. The good side of AMP lies in making websites lean, but this can be done without the fronting part.

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#539

Post by lern_too_spel » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 10:36 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #535

lern_too_spel wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then they're not HTML, are they? A square has four sides that are equal length. Does that make it not a rectangle? > As other commenters have pointed out, nobody is using the constrained set of AMP as their main page People don't use squares where they need oblong rectangles, but that doesn't mean squares are not rectangles. > And specifically, Google controls which subset of HTML this is. No, the technical steerin…

> People don't use squares where they need oblong rectangles, but that doesn't mean squares are not rectangles. You're omitting the context of that quote for trite point-scoring. If I was advertised a browser that "supported HTML" I would very reasonably expect that it had a reasonable set of features, perhaps score well on compatibility benchmarks, and in general make an effort to conform to the relevant standards.…

> If I was advertised a browser

AMP is not a browser. It is HTML markup. Likewise, nobody claimed that AMP contains all of HTML. By deliberately misconstruing what AMP is, you are the one who is fruitlessly engaging in trite point scoring.

> it would require unanimous coalition of every other member to oppose them.

As I have also pointed out before, their goal is to have even fewer Google members on that committee. Already, anything that benefits only Google would be shot down. Compare to Apple News, which is controlled entirely by Apple or FBIA, controlled entirely by Facebook, or RSS which is no longer updated at all.

Re: How to fight back against Google AMP as a web user and a web developer

#540

Post by lern_too_spel » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 10:37 PM UTC

stephenr wrote: post #524

lern_too_spel wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how is that any different? The end result is they're forcing publishers to use their format.

If you don't want Apple News formatted content, don't use the Apple News client. The web is supposed to be an open standard. If Google wants to go off and make Google Web a thing, where it only allows Chrome to view content hosted by some variation of *.google.com, thats their choice, but that isn't "the web".

> If you don't want Apple News formatted content, don't use the Apple News client.

If you don't want AMP content, don't click on it from Google, Bing, Yandex, Twitter, etc. Exactly the same idea.

> It only allows Chrome to view content hosted by some variation of *.google.com

That is not what AMP does. It allows browsers to safely prerender content from any link aggregator, including Bing and others. It does not change what Chrome can do. The page is just a normal HTML page served by the link aggregator's AMP cache.