Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#531

Post by k__ » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:12 PM UTC

hackworks wrote: post #523

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

Twitter has become a breeding ground for mobs and unjustified moral policing. I started following people based on the technical work they have done and was hoping to learn or get inspired them. Apart from a very few, every accomplished technologist have started using Twitter and their followers to attack others. This is nothing but the witch hunt from medieval times done differently. I have interacted with RMS in Ema…

While I resent most these attacks, the "I'm only here for the tech" stand, many tech-people have, deeply disgusts me.

Edit:

I'm not saying the work of a person can't be good if he did bad things.

I think it's important not to glorify people.

Free software is important for all of us, but so is a stand against sexsim or the likes.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#532

Post by badumtss » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:12 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

> Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely socially incompetent man who makes super creepy attempts to connect opposite sex.

Really?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#533

Post by kelnos » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:12 PM UTC

dlp211 wrote: post #146

robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

Because RMS isn't just another socially awkward engineer. He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. The reason for the higher standard is simple, leaders are entrusted with power and need to wield that power better than others. RMS has failed that test today.

Not just today. By many accounts, he's been failing that test for decades, and it's about time he's been taken to task for it.

It's a shame that this shitstorm started due to blatantly dishonest reporting, but I'm not sad he's gone.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#534

Post by noobermin » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:13 PM UTC

hackworks wrote: post #523

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

Twitter has become a breeding ground for mobs and unjustified moral policing. I started following people based on the technical work they have done and was hoping to learn or get inspired them. Apart from a very few, every accomplished technologist have started using Twitter and their followers to attack others. This is nothing but the witch hunt from medieval times done differently. I have interacted with RMS in Ema…

One of the problems of cancel culture is #everyonedoesit. At some point, all of us have niche issues where we feel powerless in our individual lives, yet feel empowered when the mob goes up against individual X for something we care about. I'm convinced at this point everyone indeed does it, from the right to the left and so on. People treat it as a weapon reserved for those they hate and unfairness when applied to themselves or people they like. I'm not sure what the answer is, more empathy might help, but part of me feels like with everything else going on all of it stems from a deeper disintegration in US society where people feel like they've lost control of their own lives. These are just symptoms of that.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#535

Post by KaiserPro » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:14 PM UTC

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

> Weirdly all the information technology is steering towards being more similar in our opinions and in what we can say without facing consequences.

Patently that is false.

Given the sheer amount of ad revenue that youtube, twitter et al get from hosting stuff that if printed or broadcast, would be liable to fines. (at least in the UK)

Self censorship is what defines empathy. When your child has done something hilariously stupid and hurt themselves, you comfort them, you don't stand back and tell them how incredibly stupid they are.

99.999% of people would never Mock a grieving spouse in person, why should you be enabled to broadcast that to millions of people on the internet?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#536

Post by KaiserPro » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:15 PM UTC

finnthehuman wrote: post #515

kelnos wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. I don't really see how this is so hard. Don't treat women poorly, in person or online. Don't talk authoritatively about subjects you don't understand, especially when those subjects (like rape and human trafficking) cause people intense pain. If you really do want to act this way, then you probably should exercise some self-censorship, and rethink your views, perhaps…

>Don't talk authoritatively about subjects you don't understand Then it's time to just shut down HN in general, eh?

I'll have you know I'm an expert, I'll stake my [imaginary] PhD on it.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#537

Post by js8 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:15 PM UTC

thundergolfer wrote: post #404

js8 wrote: post #150

I am glad that people didn't force Chomsky to resign from MIT due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair . Freedom of speech means that people are free to defend what other people find morally objectionable. The idea that the "leaders" should be morally pure is understandable, but ultimately very elitist. It also reminds me of this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/neurodiver...

The situation with Chomsky is not equivalent to this. Chomsky did not want Faurisson prosecuted by French law for his views. Chomsky did not himself express the bad views. Stallman here was the one expressing the bad views, so he is Faurisson not Chomsky.

Like Chomsky, Stallman did nothing illegal or immoral himself, just with his speech defended somebody who (potentially) did an illegal/immoral thing.

So if we consider "holocaust denial" to be the bad action (whether it is or not, that is for another discussion), then the analogy holds.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#538

Post by brlewis » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:16 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

> That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent.

I agree that there's a current climate that's even less amenable to open discussion than at other times. However, I disagree that words carrying perceived intent is something new. Any time you make an assertion about individual facts of a particular situation, people's first assumption is going to be that you're pushing the narrative best supported by that assertion. Telling people what you're not saying will continue to be important even if the current climate improves.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm stating a general principle, not saying anything about what RMS did or didn't say, or did or didn't intend to say. I don't have time to dig into all that.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#539

Post by mikegioia » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:16 PM UTC

ryan_lane wrote: post #333

robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

Find a few women who've met RMS and ask them about their experience. For years I've been hearing stories from women about RMS that paint a pretty clear picture, and if you look on twitter, there's a number of threads about his abusive behavior towards women. One example: people kept plants around because he hates plants and that made it less likely he'd come around to harass them. He's discussed his views on pedophil…

Everything you said is conjecture. This is one of the most baseless and accusatory comments I've read here. It's so low effort and it's immediately transparent that you just don't like the guy.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#540

Post by DaniloDias » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:17 PM UTC

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

I prefer applying compassion to people who say stupid shit.

I also prefer weirdos to Pearl Clutchers. A segment of the world may want homogeneity, but I don’t. I don’t particularly like Stallman, but I also appreciate his weirdness.