France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall • Hacker News Board

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#531

Post by Iv » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 6:33 AM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #511

Iv wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about businesses but I also think that international passengers travel is an important part of world peace. Being able to visit other countries and learn about different cultures really brings intolerance and nationalism down. I wish it was mandatory for every student to visit two or three very different countries during their studies. I understand the emissions are problematic and we need to cut them do…

> I wish it was mandatory for every student to visit two or three very different countries during their studies. That was common in the 80s & 90s but we did it wearing a backpack and hopping on buses and coaches and sleeper trains; air travel was much too expensive back then. That's in contrast to modern Ryanair-style stag-party 'tourism' where students descend on a city for a few days and then zip back home.

Buses and backpack won't expose you to different culture. Esp, in a country as big as the US. Unless you live close to the southern border, you won't even be exposed to people speaking a different language, which is an important thing to experience.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#532

Post by PeterStuer » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

dewey wrote: post #450

rsj_hn wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown: Ticket price USD 465.00 Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52 --------- International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00 APHIS User Fee USD 3.96 Immigration User Fee USD 7.00 Cust…

Take-off and landing account for a lot more pollution than a flight in cruising altitude on long trips. That's why we usually talk about the problematic domestic flights where trains are an alternative. There's not really a good alternative for long haul flights. Flights within Europe are not that heavily taxed, otherwise I wouldn't be able to fly Berlin - Brussels for 9 Euros.

Because these are extremely subsidised. Besides that, those airlines use every dark pattern in the book, so most people end up paying significantly more.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#533

Post by cosmodisk » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

zrobotics wrote: post #510

dewey wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take-off and landing account for a lot more pollution than a flight in cruising altitude on long trips. That's why we usually talk about the problematic domestic flights where trains are an alternative. There's not really a good alternative for long haul flights. Flights within Europe are not that heavily taxed, otherwise I wouldn't be able to fly Berlin - Brussels for 9 Euros.

Wait, Berlin to Brussels for €9? Good lord, that is far too cheap. For example, the distance is roughly equivalent to Denver-Albuquerque. Kayak's cheapest quote is $119 one way, scheduled 1 month in advance. I knew flights in Europe were cheaper, but how is it possible to operate profitably at that price? Kayak shows $23 for Ryanair Berlin-Brussels. For comparison, I had a vehicle breakdown and needed to take an (awf…

Ryanair,which is pretty successful business, is essentially a flying kiosk. The tickets are cheap but you pay for everything else.We had a company trip from London to Ibiza. Throughout the entire flight stewardess hasn't managed to wheel out the trolley with drinks,because there was a constant queue of 10-15 people buying alcohol. An average pub on Friday night doesn't sell as many drinks as they did on that flight. They also make tons of money from car rental,hotel, insurance referrals and many other upsells. No one in his own mind would otherwise think that running a plane that costs tens of millions of dollars with tickets worth €9 can be profitable.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#534

Post by PeterStuer » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 6:43 AM UTC

teknopaul wrote: post #473

conanbatt wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but i have never heard a small government person think there should be airplane subsidies in my life.

Who paid the F35s 1.5 trillion?

The people of the countries the US is strong arming into buying this failure

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#535

Post by benj111 » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 6:49 AM UTC

buboard wrote: post #472

benj111 wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we shouldn't do anything to curb co2 emissions and flying because 1 group of people will find it slightly more expensive/ more awkward to go home? (I say home, if they're economic migrants they're going home? But then they aren't French voters so on some level should they get a say? On the other hand if they're 'settled' migrants that call France home, they aren't going 'home' so on some level it's a summer holida…

> we shouldn't do anything to curb co2 We should act rationally, not implement random measures without forethought. I mention immigrants because international flights are disproportionately affected by this, and i think making it more difficult for them to see their family is inhumane. We don't see what is the projected effect of this law. They could have started with domestic flights or flights to places where rail…

"We should act rationally"

This is rational.

Co2 has a cost that is externalised. This is attempting to start making the emitters pay directly.

I have some sympathy for those that have built their lives around the current paradigm, but the writing has been on the wall for a long time, and this really is a modest start.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#536

Post by PeterStuer » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 6:50 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #484

wayoutthere wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole passenger air travel industry (airlines, aircraft manufacturers, airports, etc) is subsidized because they’re not profitable on their own. But a robust and affordable air travel network is a capability the business world needs to operate our economy. Boeing and Airbus are two of the most heavily subsidized companies in the world, and the airlines themselves aren’t far behind. They’re both high-risk, low-mar…

I don't know about businesses but I also think that international passengers travel is an important part of world peace. Being able to visit other countries and learn about different cultures really brings intolerance and nationalism down. I wish it was mandatory for every student to visit two or three very different countries during their studies. I understand the emissions are problematic and we need to cut them do…

We travel to get away from the hell holes we created locally, just to then turn those destinations into carbon copies of the places we were trying to escape from.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#537

Post by mhuffman » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 7:19 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #527

rsj_hn wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the huge taxes are generally for international flights, and I think part of the reason is that, as you say, there aren't a lot of options for those flights so they have a captive market and are thus better able to bear those taxes. If you start with punitive taxes on domestic flights in the EU, it will disproportionately hit the airline industry there. As with many things, the game with taxes is how to make the…

Taxes always fall on the consumer. Businesses don’t pay tax. https://miltonfriedman.hoover.org/friedman_images/Collection...

That depends on the product being taxed. I learned this in econ101 that the price elasticity of demand determines who bears the bulk of a tax. I don’t have references in my old textbooks handy, but here is exactly the same concept as I learned it[1]

Basically, if demand for a product is inelastic (eg. cigarettes, insulin) that will pretty much be 100% passed on to customers by the business. You can see the supplied link for examples where the seller has no choice but to eat the tax (or most of it) or people will just stop purchasing.

[1] https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/microec...

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#538

Post by hayd » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 7:41 AM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #349

hayd wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Start with yourself" And this doesn't address that, it just attempts to price the poor out of flying... Awesome stuff. This will have zero impact on the affluent, we'll continue to fly whenever and wherever we want.

And the amount of money raised can then be spent on cleaning up the externalities.

I am very uncomfortable pricing the poor out of things. That's the fundamental issue with sin taxes like this.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#539

Post by dasKrokodil » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 7:42 AM UTC

late2part wrote: post #499

dewey wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a source for that but I'd say if the airlines etc wouldn't be so subsidized there would be higher focus on developing better engines, electric planes or other technologies than in the current state where losses will just be covered by the tax payer. They wouldn't just stop operating and the "business world" would most likely not collapse. I've talked to a bunch of people that get flown around by their co…

do you have any idea how many carbon emissions are created with a two hour meeting? The network, the video servers, the laptop/desktops - the monitors, the A/C to cool each of those people at the distributed locations?

While it is valid to bring this up, I'm pretty sure the emissions and energy usage of a videoconference are minuscule in comparison to the flights that are replaced. Laptops will be needed in both cases, as well as A/C (if that is necessary at all).

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#540

Post by chopin » Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 7:46 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #485

pathseeker wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is highly inefficient to make an additional landing to fuel up. The tax would have to be obscene to make the numbers work out for an airline to tanker.

I don't think so. Even a 20% fuel tax in the EU would probably make a few EU neighbour states lay down extra long runways so a plane can land, fuel up, and takeoff again, all without opening the doors or maneuvering/reversing. They could probably do 5 minutes with practice. It would save $10k easily for a big plane.

You can make it time efficient, but not fuel efficient.

As well approaching and departing procedures add to the time, so you spend at least 30min on it. Add the diversion and you lose even more time. This would make only sense for very long flights.

Refueling with passengers on board has safety considerations as well.