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Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

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Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#531

Post by oarabbus_ »

dfilppi wrote: post #124
bunderbunder wrote: post #120

Aside from all the things mentioned in the article, this also seems like a fairly predictable application of Goodhart's Law: "Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes." Once upon a time, skill at doing these sorts of problems might have correlated (imperfectly) with general aptitude as a programmer or software engineer. But the very act of trying t…

The tests have become a pure filter, screen out those who dont study heavily prior to taking them. They are uncorrelated from the candidates ability at every day tasks.

Surely, this must eventually lead to negative results? It's curious because it doesn't seem to be having any negative impact as of now.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#532

Post by oarabbus_ »

crazygringo wrote: post #168
zinclozenge wrote: post #15

The less talked about absurdity is that successfully passing programming interviews is a skill itself. It's especially absurd because the time I spend developing that skill is less time spent developing skills and knowledge more directly relevant to my job. Yet, programming interview skill is more relevant to progressing my career. edit: now if you'll excuse me, I need to do some dynamic programming problems.

Note that one often-cited counterargument to its seeming "absurdity" is that it evens the playing field in a fairer, more meritocratic way. No matter your background, what school you went to, or what randomized experience you got in previous jobs, every person has equal opportunity to study and practice the same algorithms on their own (as opposed to being lucky enough to be able to afford a top-tier $$$ CS education…

It's "fairer" if you're a recent college grad, probably single, definitely no kids or other family obligations, fresh out of school, and without much to lose if you spend all your free time studying for a "fair, meritocratic" test.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#533

Post by eecsninja »

oarabbus_ wrote: post #529
sfw1k wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

some coders that don't get too critical about their job Couldn't be farther from the truth. As someone who works there I've noticed this general trend of animosity towards Google, it seems to be fueled by the fact that people feel a sort of inferiority complex when they don't clear an interview or they feel they wouldn't be able to crack it if they ever gave it a shot, this leads to an overcompensation of attitude in…

>it seems to be fueled by the fact that people feel a sort of inferiority complex when they don't clear an interview or they feel they wouldn't be able to crack it if they ever gave it a shot Some of the most talented people I've ever met have failed Google interviews. As in far, far more talented than the majority of folks I know who do work at google. No amount of bullshitting is going to convince me that Google's…

I've met my share of Googlers who are lazy, don't know how to solve problems (as opposed to write code itself), or still need help with basic tasks after several years on the job.

You just can't test for some qualities like focused, persistent problem solving and the desire to find ways to speed up your work.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#534

Post by thedufer »

1000units wrote: post #423
thedufer wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not illegal to use IQ tests as part of a job screening (in the US). It is illegal to screen in a way that is both discriminatory and not proven to correlate with job performance, but that applies equally to both IQ tests and algorithms questions.

IQ is proven to correlate with performance in virtually everything, so I'm not sure where you're going with that. If I require all prospective engineering hires to prove explicitly that they have an IQ of at least 135, I will get sued. Do you think this is false?

Obviously I do not think that is false; you can get sued for literally anything. Do I think you would lose? Depends on whether you've done the research showing that 135 is an important cut-off.

To turn this around, can you point at the law that makes IQ a protected class or whatever you're claiming it is? I'm not going to have much luck proving a negative - Russell's teapot and all that.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#535

Post by princeofwands »

mikeash wrote: post #525
doublekill wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have organizational breath with smaller teams. You pair a great programmer with an exceptional programmer and it helps if they are specialized in roughly the same topics.

How does that give you breadth?

The teams specialize.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#536

Post by mikeash »

princeofwands wrote: post #535
mikeash wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that give you breadth?

The teams specialize.

The other commenter was describing it as a “safe place” where you can talk about complex CS topics without confusing people. Unless your teams never talk to other teams, that doesn’t fit.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#537

Post by ball_of_lint »

abhishekjha wrote: post #421
ball_of_lint wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest kattis and CodeForces. I use kattis mostly, but know a number of people who like codeforces better. Here's a few for you to try. Some of these are pretty hard, but you should be able to find solution sketches online if you google the contests they are from. https://open.kattis.com/problems/increasingsubsequence https://open.kattis.com/problems/maximumsubarrays https://open.kattis.com/problems/tray https:/…

Thank you. I will definitely be coming back. I guess I have difficulty formulating a DP problem properly.

I found another recently that has DP on a tree:

https://open.kattis.com/problems/theescape

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#538

Post by erik_seaberg »

alboy wrote: post #354
erik_seaberg wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those incentives are misaligned. Not every law school grad can pass the bar.

They may very well be, but is the quality of signal truly worse than that which an interviewer can extract from a few hours of your writing code on the board?

There are people with degrees who can't code. I'd prefer we don't hire them, so we ask for coding.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#539

Post by gejjaxxita »

tombert wrote: post #337
KallDrexx wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, I genuinely do feel theory is really important. While not knowing the minutia of a tim-sort doesn't indicate that you'll be a bad engineer, not knowing the runtime efficiency of a sort can lead to some really awful code. Not knowing when to use a hash table instead of a nested-for loop can be a sign that you don't really know what you're doing, and not knowing some rough theory on concurrency ind…

I don't think you're wrong in general, but in one specific case I actually can give an example where me not knowing how a hash-map worked was really bad. I was working on a very limited set of memory for a small embedded thing when I was an intern, and was using hashmaps all over the place because they're magic, and kept getting out of memory exceptions. I learned later that hashmaps are inherently O(n) (or O(log n))…

Hash maps are O(1)

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#540

Post by towaway1138 »

cubano wrote: post #341
glangdale wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure it's age discrimination plain and simple. The only time in my life I would have been in great shape for the standard interview process without a good deal of study was a couple years in early graduate school, where nearly all of this "breadth" stuff was fresh in my mind. The relentless scepticism about people's achievements is to some extent understandable (we've all run into the senior person who can…

Without a doubt it's age discrimination...you've hit the nail on the head. Also, God help you if you have followed a non-traditional career path where you decide at points in your life that you wanted a break from it all. I, too, in 1988, fresh out of my BS in CP with no family or life experiences and a strong desire to code day and night would have sailed past the technical side of these often ridiculous interviews…

I'm about your age, and this is very relatable. My last job hunt took about six months. Among the other high points, I passed the on-site day at Google, passed the hiring committee, and then had an executive reach out to quash my hire.

I did end up finding something I'm enjoying.

Anyway, just wanted to send you some support. Keep your head up and keep going. You really only need one offer.

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