Did I just waste 3 years? • Hacker News Board

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#531

Post by baud147258 » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

seventhtiger wrote: post #525

baud147258 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Making the games you want to play is actually not great advice. You need to find a niche and hit it hard. I'd say you need both: you need to want to do a game you'd want to play, because you'd have an easier time recognizing if you're doing something that would appeal to at least one person. And if it's in a niche, you'll have a better chance to get coverage and buyers. But if you just try to hit a niche hard witho…

I disagree with that, but it's just my opinion. I think artists must move beyond their own taste. A sushi chef doesn't really have to like squid. I think using your own taste is a crutch. If you get good at it, you should be able to know it's good regardless of your own feelings. We see this when game developers are shuffled around and work on ones that are completely different from their passion projects. The good o…

Even if one is good enough to recognise a good game regardless of one's feelings, I'd say it would be harder to work on a game type that doesn't appeal the artist. I hope that even if a sushi chef doesn't like squid, he like some of the sushi he'll be making.

Let's agree to disagree then.

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#532

Post by petercooper » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

cableshaft wrote: post #520

Angostura wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minecraft had no marketing. ... ish. You can certainly think of the prolonged free alpha (and beta?) as marketing

Also Notch spammed 4chan with the game anonymously for awhile to drum up some interest. Also he made a highly viral video of him building a minecart rollercoaster during his paid (but cheaper, I believe it was $13, and he was telling people that was half the price that it would be on official release) beta which he got Kotaku and Penny Arcade to share with their massive audience and suddenly he was a millionaire pret…

Your story is accurate to as much as I remember it too, though a key element often forgotten in Notch's story is he'd already built a lot of small, throwaway games that had pretty much bombed and essentially learnt the lesson of what a lack of marketing could do the hard way before he got to MC.

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#533

Post by smolder » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #407

eksemplar wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it reads as someone who disregards unity games, while praising well made indie games in general. And in the light of the rest of the article, the author seem to favor people who did good programming, but the truth is that you don’t need to be a good programmer to make good games. I think supply is an issue, but I also think the author added to the problem by releasing a game that doesn’t have appealing graphics…

Shovelware typically does not have "appealing graphics, gameplay or sound". It is term used for low effort games and imply nothing special in all aspects.

Shovelware can have appealing graphics and sound by way of licensing premade assets, but you can't really buy a game design and paste that into your own title to get appealing gameplay.

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#534

Post by petercooper » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

fileeditview wrote: post #457

BigJono wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to look at really successful indie games, such as Terraria, Factorio, Mini Metro, Stardew Valley, Darkest Dungeon, Papers Please.. and there are many more. If you look at these games do you really think there is an alternative reality where they would not sell many copies? I don't. Interesting. I think you're right about half of those. I can't see any way that SDV or Darkest Dungeon could have failed. SDV…

It's only my opinion and I may well be wrong :) I agree that Mini Metro is the one of the listed games that I would be least certain about. I think however it is very polished (more than other "puzzle" games) and it strikes a nerve because the design is very familiar to people using metros or buses. Papers Please is a very special case. It has a very unique idea and that's what makes it stand out. You are right that…

it strikes a nerve because the design is very familiar to people using metros or buses.

And certainly don't underestimate the number of people who are borderline obsessive with transport networks, trains, and anything involving traffic (myself included). Almost any game that adds a good gameplay element to managing or routing trains or traffic is going to do OK. Cities Skylines has done well with this crowd, too, after SimCity decided to start focusing on "Sims" style games and ditch the traffic aspects.

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#535

Post by cableshaft » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

drb91 wrote: post #513

macspoofing wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really a difference? I know an acquaintance that published a novel they worked on for a few years. They didn't share any numbers with me but they were clear, they made no money. I assume there are thousands of people trying to sell their novels, and a tiny minority succeed in making (big) money.

> and a tiny minority succeed in making (big) money. Who is making big money JUST off novels? Not speaking, not tv deals, writing. Meanwhile I know several game developers making a living. Setting out to do it still follows a success distribution, but it’s fundementally achievable in a way unavailable to writers entirely.

They exist. But those writers are making money are doing quantity over quality. I.e. they're releasing like 12 pulp novels a year that they churn out once per month, and build up a fanbase over time with every new release, who then buy up their quickly growing backlog of novels.

Seems like urban supernatural or romance (or urban supernatural romance) seems to be the main genres where this is working. My girlfriend follows several writers who make a living this way, and is wanting to give it a try herself, that's how I'm aware of it.

You can't write The Great American Novel or spend years writing your novel and make money this way though. It pretty much requires the momentum and consistent quick releases for it to work. You're making sugary garbage that's consumed quickly and forgotten just as quickly.

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#536

Post by stubish » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 3:58 PM UTC

Negitivefrags wrote: post #431

Retra wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super Metroid is literally my favorite game, and I don't really have a strong urge to play this. Metroid is an exploration-based game. The game rewards you for finding secrets and for knowing how to get places. It teases you to find a way to break sequence, and much of the replay-ability of that game is based on the possibility to do that and to bask in what you've already learned about the world. Procedural generati…

Think of games that players play for more than 1000 hours. They have either: A) Multiplayer B) Procedural Generation If you don’t want to do A, and you hope to make something people will play for a long time, then you have to do B. Procedural generation has no value for getting players interested, it only matters for keeping players long term. But it does matter a lot.

If you are aiming for a game that people play for more than 1000 hours, sure. Commercially, this would be a terrible segment of the market to aim for. The people who play the same title for that long are unlikely to buy your game, because they don't have time to play it. Unless you happen to find a niche first, you will end up with a few players, but supporting them for a long, long time.

Shorter games are fine, and sell to people who want novelty over repetition. Don't make the game longer than its content, and price accordingly.

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#537

Post by cableshaft » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 4:02 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #532

cableshaft wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Notch spammed 4chan with the game anonymously for awhile to drum up some interest. Also he made a highly viral video of him building a minecart rollercoaster during his paid (but cheaper, I believe it was $13, and he was telling people that was half the price that it would be on official release) beta which he got Kotaku and Penny Arcade to share with their massive audience and suddenly he was a millionaire pret…

Your story is accurate to as much as I remember it too, though a key element often forgotten in Notch's story is he'd already built a lot of small, throwaway games that had pretty much bombed and essentially learnt the lesson of what a lack of marketing could do the hard way before he got to MC.

Sure, I don't doubt that. Failure is one of the best teachers.

I've experienced many marketing failures for video games as well (both games I made myself and games I worked on for other companies), I should be an expert on it by now. Guess that means I should make a new game and apply all those lessons I learned :P.

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#538

Post by eloisant » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

eksemplar wrote: post #383

chongli wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. At this point, recommending that a 9-5 programmer quit their job to work on an indie game is equivalent to suggesting a PR writer quit their job to write the next Great American Novel.

It was always like that though. Game programming had always been the worst field for programmers, and the industry had and is exploiting the fact that some people like games enough to work on them under horrible conditions. I don’t think it’s the equivalent to writing the great American novel though, because programming is just a minor part of game creating and arguably one of the least important. Design I’d the most…

I think there has been some windows of opportunity for single-developers teams.

- In the 80's and 90's when PC games where simple enough.

- At the beginning of Steam

- At the beginning of the App Store and the Play Store

At those time, there wasn't that much competition so while it was still hit or miss, you still had a decent chance to be successful as a single-person indie developer.

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#539

Post by animal531 » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #324

ReverseCold wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is why minigame-style games (battle royale, fighting games, first person shooter competitive, etc) are so common. You can implement a simple version of your game idea in a weekend and, if your idea was good, people would likely already have fun playing it.

Never really did modern game development, but can you really implement a first person shooter with a twist over a weekend? How would you go about it, create a mod for an existing game?

It depends on the twist.

You can download Unity, purchase and install for example UFPS that will handle most FPS functionality for you (includes basic gun etc model) and you can use Unity networking for LAN connectivity.

Let's say the twist is a Battle Royale game, you just make a Unity terrain and a basic sphere that becomes smaller.

After that coding the extra bits such as HP, HP loss due to sphere etc isn't a big deal.

That's one way, doing it via a mod also works, but you really need knowledge of the product you're modding (although the same is true of e.g. Unity, if its your first week with it it won't be that easy).

Re: Did I just waste 3 years?

#540

Post by Bartweiss » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 4:36 PM UTC

fileeditview wrote: post #454

fiblye wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You have to look at really successful indie games, such as Terraria, Factorio, Mini Metro, Stardew Valley, Darkest Dungeon, Papers Please.. and there are many more. If you look at these games do you really think there is an alternative reality where they would not sell many copies? I don't. Very much yes. Most of their success is due to being fortunate enough to get a bunch of coverage. From screenshots, most aren't…

Well I disagree a lot with what you are saying. Marketing is important sure. But you cannot market "bad" indie games to be successful. Maybe big gaming companies can do that but even they fail often enough. Luck is an important factor and maybe I would even rate it higher than 5%. I find the number of 90% marketing for an indie game ridiculous. Stardew Valley is based on existing formula but it is incredibly polished…

> But you cannot market "bad" indie games to be successful.

This doesn't seem to be a disagreement? Quality is necessary for a successful indie game, but that's very different than being sufficient.

I can easily imagine a world where Stardew Valley failed, but I can't imagine a world where Hunt Down The Freeman succeeded. Given the sheer rate at which new games are released, I expect that a majority of polished, fun indie games fail or at least don't see major Terraria-tier success. Heck, half of my Steam library consists of clever, well-executed indie games from Humble Bundles that got near-zero coverage and sold near-zero copies. Orwell, Antichamber, Distance, and a lot of others all had the quality to sell much better than they did.

And beyond that, I think our standards for quality are usually biased by whether a game succeeded. Factorio is absolutely full of grainy, repeated textures, but took off just fine. Dungeons of Dredmor crashes constantly and went through three major expansions without fixing fundamental bugs like "this skill doesn't function", but it's a hugely successful and widely-praised indie title. Subnautica is constantly criticized for just sort of aimlessly ending. It's easy to look at a failed game and say it didn't sell because it was buggy, or looked ugly, or had a weak ending, but all of those things are present in lots of hugely successful indie games. Above some minimal threshold like "no unbearable flaws, one or more excellent elements", it looks to me like luck and marketing are absolutely crucial factors.