Live data from Hacker News

Who Killed the Junior Developer?

medium.com

531–540 of 803 posts

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#531
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've recently started hiring for a junior front-end position and we've stumbled upon code bootcamps graduates asking for 120k with one or two demo projects on their github. NYC Area, which I find absurd. Unsure if it's the mentors at those schools that are telling their students to ask for that much or the students themselves think that companies that want to hire juniors usually have that deep of a pocket.

I'd argue that it's absurd that we still think 120k is a lot of money when we look around at how expensive things like property are. My father, with a modest education and a modest first job, was able to get married, raise a child and buy a house near London well before he was 30. Property in that area is now worth hundreds of thousands and would require a six-figure salary (supposedly a lot of money!!) to be able to…

This. Its not that junior devs are overpaid, its that almost every single salaried job is underpaid for the amount of revenue they produce.

If you work for a company and produce a million in value every year and they pay you 100k for it, you are basically accepting that the company was 90% of the reason you made any value at all. For almost every single developer that is not true. On average you could probably make the exact same amount on contract / as a consultant. The fact the business is making fortunes off your work is just exploitative.

This also applies to way more industries than just software, its just most apparent in software because of how many ludicrous buckets of money big tech players are taking home each year while still paying their dev teams only 6 figures.

Your worth to a corporation is the amount of revenue you produce for their bottom line (or how much loss you offset). If you are making them way more money than they are paying you you are being taken advantage of, whether that be at 30k a year or 300k a year.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "trouble". I'm ten years into my career now, but I graduated with no internships and feel like I've done OK.

I think he is referring to people entering the field now. If they don't have internships then it will be hard for them to compete with others vying for Junior Dev positions that have done internships.

Anecdotally, I didn't factor in internships at all when I was last hiring for a jr. I didn't interview a single person who didn't have a public code repo.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they aren't a rockstar. And frankly, I've spent my career cleaning up the obfuscated, badly documented, untested code of "rockstar" devs. The idea of a "rockstar" you seem to be referring to has, in my experience, been a dev who can go into a corner and pump out high volumes of code with little supervision or collaboration. That's great, except no one else can make sense of the code they pump out, so when it com…

That's why I've always told people that I'm a "studio musician" developer. Not a rock star, but a competent professional the studio calls when they need to make a record.

I LOVE THIS MORE THAN YOU COULD EVER BEGIN TO KNOW!

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#534

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

What do you suggest for those of us who believe we would be terrible at management? Add to that, I also think I would be miserable doing it.

Subscribe to Rands' blog, read through his archives, and get on his Slack.

http://randsinrepose.com/

https://rands-leadership.slack.com/?redir=%2Fmessages%2Fgene...

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#535
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing that you will get in trouble for hiring interns and compensate them more than 500 euros. In the NL you aren't even obliged to give them any compensation and if you are compensating them you are free to do so as much as you'd wish. Internships in the Netherlands are akin to modern slavery imo. You work full time and with luck you get a compensation of 500 euros a month,though often no comp…

Normative answer (in Dutch), I have no practical experience either way: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/minimumloon/vraag-e... Your employer has no obligation to compensate for your internship, but is not prohibited either. There is no minimum or maximum amount set for this compensation. The focus for internship should be on training, not work. If the Inspectie SZW (employment auditor) finds that the interns…

AFAIK that maximum is only for the "gift" that was superseded by a loan which has no max income limit.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#536

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

Nah this is not true. I started out as a junior dev and remained a junior dev for many years. I've progressed through the ranks over time by continuing to learn new concepts and tools, to observe my mentors and managers, and to adapt.

There may be environments like Silicon Valley where companies lean towards experience, but I can tell you in the Chicago areas University of Illinois and other comp-sci graduates get hired consistently.

It's too complex of an issue to throw a blanket over it. The market matters, the person matters, and the hiring team matters.

I don't believe there's any inherent bias against hiring junior developers. It all depends on a company's needs.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#537

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

What do you suggest for those of us who believe we would be terrible at management? Add to that, I also think I would be miserable doing it.

[deleted]

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A key point that you're missing is that junior devs are likely to jump ship at least once in their career trajectory before they become senior devs. So yes, junior devs do need to be trained by someone , but if you're going to put in a lot of work and not receive much of the benefit, it's not in your best interest. There's a variety of reasons for why devs jump ship so often (including compensation), but unless you c…

Once they're trained up to a point where another company is willing to pay them more for a more senior position, you could give them a raise? Congrats! You trained a junior dev and they turned into a senior dev.

Awhile back I left my first software job (they did have systematic hiring of new grads) at a very large corporation because I was moving to another city. As it happened, that company also had an office in the city I was moving to. I applied for a position at the new location and they gave me an offer. But their offer was something like 15-20k lower than just about all the other offers I had. Apparently there was some limit on how much you could increase someone's compensation that was preventing them from offering me more. I heard a rumor that my previous boss (one of only two level 6 software engineers in the company's whole eastern region) made some noise about how ridiculous it was given that hiring me was way less risky than hiring someone else since my track record at the company was well established. But it was all to no avail. He couldn't move the bureaucracy. So of course I took the highest paying offer with another company.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've recently started hiring for a junior front-end position and we've stumbled upon code bootcamps graduates asking for 120k with one or two demo projects on their github. NYC Area, which I find absurd. Unsure if it's the mentors at those schools that are telling their students to ask for that much or the students themselves think that companies that want to hire juniors usually have that deep of a pocket.

Are these just basic junior devs, or are they specialists in another field with multiple advanced degrees from top tier schools ($$$) and professional experience in that other field? (law, medicine, the arts) and (Yale, Princeton, Juilliard) If so, I'd say they are well worth $120,000, probably have a giant body of work in another field, and are motivated to make back their investment in a mountain of education that…

You might be having a bit of grass is greener syndrome. I graduated in 2012, so a bit after that 8 year ago mark, but after over a year of the traditional "apply and interview with big tech companies all over the country" and nobody wanting to take on verbatim junior devs (at least not at my skill level at the time) I just pivoted into free software for two years and consulting for small businesses the last three.

There has never been a point in time where corporations were willing to hire on the inexperienced cart blanche to train them. It has always been a problem that nobody wants to foot the proverbial bill of Jimmys first real dev team. It is only getting worse now as more and more people enter the industry but major giants are slowing down their rampant horizontal department growth that gave a large chunk of juniors a path to classical employment in the nulls.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#540

The problem is squashed salaries. I’ll have junior devs or people straight out of code school asking for 75-80% the salary of a solid senior dev. If I have to make a bet on who will be easier to manage and get productive 4 seniors vs 5 juniors for the same total expenditure I’ll choose the seniors every time. Even at 2 to 1 I’m taking seniors. Maybe around 3 or 4 to 1 juniors might look better. But that means junior…

is 50k really such a bad starting salary or is there such a big difference between US and EU?

If you are living somewhere with 2k a month rent, then yes, $50k a year is awful and nigh unlivable.

You should not be in a position where you are working professionally and full time where you have to worry about having enough money each month to survive.

The cost of living is out of control and nobody wants to acknowledge that should reflect rising salaries. It is why there was so much momentum around a $15 minimum wage two years ago.

The economy has not stagnated or contracted. Markets are larger than ever. Corporations are profitable as always and are somehow finding billions to buy each other out rather than pay their employees a respectable wage.

If the momentum and progress of the 50s and 60s held to today the mean salary should be in the $150k a year range, not $50k. The average person is way too complacent to the march of inflation and growth of the economy to think that since $50k was a lot in 1978 that it should still be sufficient in 2018.

Post reply on HN