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China Blocks WhatsApp

nytimes.com

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Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#531

Post by electrograv »

the_common_man wrote: post #337
Danihan wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's simply factually wrong. The US has much better press freedoms, freedom of speech and gun ownership rights than any other large country. It has nothing to do with an echo chamber. The laws are objectively very different. Comparing surveillance by the NSA to information accessibility in general is disingenuous at best.

> The US has much better press freedoms, freedom of speech and gun ownership rights than any other country. Any country that requires and authorizes gun ownership is broken to start with. That you think this is somehow superior and better is.. I don't know what to say. > Comparing surveillance by the NSA to access to information in general is disingenuous at best. What's the difference?

Please justify your claims here. Most trends to ban weapons in politics are rooted in authoritarian desires disguised in “but think of the children!” emotional rhetoric without logical justification. There is actually a very deep theory behind why gun/weapon ownership is a necessary freedom derived from the fundamental human right of “self ownerhip” (which China would prefer you ignore), which we can dive into here.

In short: If you do not have the right to defend a thing, you do not truly own it. If I give you an apple, but say “you’re not allowed to stop me if I try to take it back”, then you do not truly own the apple. Even if I continue to let you have the apple, ultimately I remain the sole owner of the apple (despite any illusions of the contrary) because I have the exclusive power over it. This applies to the self as well; if you do not have the right to effectively defend yourself, you are effectively owned by your government.

If only your government has the authority to physical force towards defense of your property and yourself, then it is your government that truly owns you and ‘your’ property. All notions of ownership you may have are illusory, in the absence of such rights to defense.

Now in China, at least there is no illusion of freedom. Everyone knows they are owned by the government.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#533

Post by pertymcpert »

twelvechairs wrote: post #307
chaostheory wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there's a tendency for people to overestimate the importance of foreign apps to Chinese consumers Then why take the trouble of blocking something so small and unimportant? ;) > eg., the Chinese tech/online market is so huge it can sustain multiple competitors of its own in each sector Doesn't China have bigger aspirations than just the mainland? People are missing the bigger point. I'm not talking about the…

> Then why take the trouble of blocking something so small and unimportant? ;) China would rather be in control of tracking/surveillance internally, rather than let it be done by foreign companies and nations. Thats all

WhatsApp doesn't do surveillance, it's end to end encrypted. Foreign surveillance is not the reason they block these services and you know it.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#534

Post by pertymcpert »

AmIFirstToThink wrote: post #397
FabHK wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's way more powerful than WhatsApp, too (location based chats, payments, etc.). And, of course, it's not E2E encrypted; just the opposite, you can assume that it's being wiretapped/monitored. Thus, please don't install it.

>And, of course, it's not E2E encrypted; just the opposite, you can assume that it's being wiretapped/monitored. Whatsapp is not? Are you sure? I would assume NSA doing all it wants as well. Whatsapp is out not because it can't let authorities audit it, but because of other economic reasons.

Yes it is.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#535

Post by peoplewindow »

ebola1717 wrote: post #344
chaostheory wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. My question was rhetorical. It was in response to someone saying that apps outside of China are unimportant and small. 2. No single country has a monopoly on innovation. Consequently the sharing of ideas from different locations and cultures is really important for moving forward. You miss out on this benefit when you consciously work to block it. Historically, the last time China was this arrogant about isolation…

China's not blocking out the sharing of ideas though. Until a few months ago, Andrew Ng worked at Baidu! They are isolating data , but hoarding data is a competitive advantage in a way that isolating knowledge isn't.

Last I heard academics had started getting filtered internet connections too, and were finding it hard to collaborate with non-Chinese academics as a consequence.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#536

Post by richardknop »

PresidentObama wrote: post #321
yourapostasy wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even in HK and Taiwan, WeChat is not used outside of those reasons. Before someone asks, the approximate equivalent of WeChat in Taiwan is Line. Don't know what it is in HK.

The equivalent of WeChat in HK is WhatsApp.

Lot of people in HK use Wechat (I have lived in HK). I wouldn't say it's so clear cut. LINE is also popular. But definitely Wechat is substantial especially since there's a lot of people from mainland and also if you got friends in Shenzen, you will use Wechat. I have seen many HK locals (born in HK, not immigrants from mainland) using Wechat.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#537

Post by peoplewindow »

ernst_klim wrote: post #519
Mikeb85 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing the West does is principled, and the sooner people realise this the sooner they understand why the rest of the world reacts the way they do to the West. From destabilising Libya and Syria, to taking in refugees, to grandstanding with Russia, nothing is done for any set of moral principles. Libya and Syria were 2 nations that believed in Arab and African pan-nationalism, and tried to assert independence and se…

>we overthrew several governments on their borders and replaced them with pro-Western Dunno if you are trolling, but that's impossible. You can't just overthrow the government if people don't want it. And supporting the revolution is absolutely normal, even China does it in Myanma.

He's exaggerating for effect. Providing military, political and financial support to a coup is in the same general area.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#538

Post by peoplewindow »

Sacho wrote: post #488
gaius wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China will reach some predetermined level of technology that The Party decides they are comfortable with, then close their borders and just get on with being the Middle Kingdom in splendid isolation. That is my prediction. I don't think they feel the need to project power and remake the world the way the US and previously the UK do/did. Maybe they will disengage from the world and look spacewards.

China invests heavily into Africa and the whole continent will be under its sphere of influence, with all its growing-out-of-poverty economies. They're hardly the isolationists you imagine.

China 'invests' in Africa where other nations don't because the Chinese government needs to get rid of wealth to prevent its own people catching up with western living standards too quickly. Once living standards are caught up, "things are getting better" is no longer a good justification for tolerating the abuses and corruption.

In 1984 Big Brother did this same thing by having perpetual war, and Chinese military spending is in fact stupendously huge, but even so they aren't actually in a war so need other ways to burn large quantities of capital. Building unprofitable railways in the middle of Africa is a great way to keep their own people poor whilst claiming some sort of moral high ground. But if these were good investments, it wouldn't be up to the PRC to make them.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#539

Post by vetinari »

kbart wrote: post #494
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Yandex and vk?

That's what I meant by writing: "Russians also have copy-cat versions of many western sites/services that are more popular than original ones". vk == Facebook, Yandex == Google.

And by having that, they are better off than Europeans, who have nothing. Instead, they add their weight to the network effects of US services.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#540

Post by vetinari »

jacquesm wrote: post #295
diminish wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Chinese start an economic and cultural expansion which includes PRing their culture, movies, tech, products and building special relationships with developing world in Asia, Africa, south American and Europe they may end up being the globalization leader.

That is going to be tough. A whole generation of Chinese see the west as cool and to be emulated. I have a hard time seeing a whole generation of Europeans and Americans wanting to emulate the Chinese, Japan, maybe. China, not so much.

> I have a hard time seeing a whole generation of Europeans and Americans wanting to emulate the Chinese, Japan, maybe. China, not so much.

That's more position of ignorance, and thankfully it is changing.

Even Eastern Europe had a problem with such an attitude. There used to be a saying: "Americans are not going to buy Skoda, Chinese will". And indeed, Chinese do.

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