Amazon Go • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Go

#531

Post by moftz » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

jpalomaki wrote: post #218

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wouldn't trust 'picked up off the shelf' detection, not without the whole thing looking like a giant vending machine. RFID tags on products probably works better.

RFID has some privacy concerns, since the tags continue work when you are outside the store and somebody can scan what you are carrying. Using these as EAN barcode replacement also has the problem that the system can't tell if you bought the product from Amazon GO or if you just happen to be carrying it with you when you enter the store.

Someone can already walk around a grocery store and see what's in my cart or they can just watch me checkout. Buying groceries isn't exactly a private experience unless you buy your stuff online. Securing tags in things like a passport or credit card is important since identity theft is real and hardware to read the tags is cheap. Knowing what things I buy in the grocery store might help some marketers know what sells but I can't really think of any nefarious use of that kind of data.

Maybe you could use it to make some guesses about a person. An older guy buying frozen dinners, beer, and not much else is probably single or divorced. A woman buying prenatal vitamins is probably pregnant. Someone buying both Special K and Fruit Loops might have a family. But someone can already make these determinations from using their eyes. RFIDs might make it a bit easier but don't really add any new infosec facet to this grocery store experience.

Re: Amazon Go

#532

Post by hackermailman » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

CodeSheikh wrote: post #201

Guys this is not good. As much as I love the convenience of pick-and-go, this eventually will prove out to be drastic for a variety of bad socioeconomic reasons, that most of us are already aware of. Small businesses were already suffering at the hands of Amazon Prime. Now Amazon Go wants to not only kick out those businesses out of the block but it also wants to take away jobs of small retail salesperson. Unacceptab…

Where I live all the grocery stores already have almost no employees, with delivery service so you only interact with a website + delivery agent, or a self checkout kiosk if you show up in person.

The in person shopping primarily happens in specialty grocery stores like Italian delis and the like. They won't be going away.

Re: Amazon Go

#533

Post by HemanHeartYou » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

delegate wrote: post #387

Look, I know this might not be a popular view here on HN, but I think this is useless. And bad. I'm not talking about the technology behind it (I think it's an amazing achievement).. I live in Barcelona and I have at least 5 medium-sized supermarkets within 5 minutes walking distance from my home. Plus there are several smaller shops that sell fruits and vegetables. I know all the people who work in these supermarket…

Different culture, yadda yadda

Re: Amazon Go

#534

Post by agencytoss1 » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

delegate wrote: post #387

Look, I know this might not be a popular view here on HN, but I think this is useless. And bad. I'm not talking about the technology behind it (I think it's an amazing achievement).. I live in Barcelona and I have at least 5 medium-sized supermarkets within 5 minutes walking distance from my home. Plus there are several smaller shops that sell fruits and vegetables. I know all the people who work in these supermarket…

> These people like their jobs because we respect them for what they do, so they feel useful and they work hard.

> The humanity of it has value for us here and that value is greater than the time we'd save by removing the people from the shops.

I wish this sentiment existed in other realms and for the countless un/underemployed millennials out there. I wonder how many marketing assistant and assistant media planner jobs have been killed by the use of one janky "online marketing suite" after another.

Re: Amazon Go

#535

Post by gdudeman » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

CrLf wrote: post #450

crazypyro wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to save jobs that are no longer the most efficient way of solving a problem is not the way to promote the value of humanity, in my opinion. People want groceries as cheap and fast as possible. They don't go to the grocery store for social interaction and forcing the majority of people to pay extra for something that only the minority get value out of is not a competitive strategy. If humanity were to take your…

I am unsure we are evolving. We have evolved in many areas that solve real problems, like healthcare and such, but I'm not sure today's society is any better for all the technology that allows us to save a couple of minutes in a queue. To improve the efficiency of a particular group, we create problems elsewhere. The result may not be net positive. In fact, I think it isn't, since those saved "couple of minutes" will…

I'd suggest we are evolving, but you are both mis-using "evolve." Evolution does not mean better, it just means change to fit the current environment. Humanity and intelligence is not the logical outcome of evolution.

This feels like a natural evolution. It's a outcome product of the environment.

Re: Amazon Go

#536

Post by barrkel » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

des429 wrote: post #431

delegate wrote: post #387

Look, I know this might not be a popular view here on HN, but I think this is useless. And bad. I'm not talking about the technology behind it (I think it's an amazing achievement).. I live in Barcelona and I have at least 5 medium-sized supermarkets within 5 minutes walking distance from my home. Plus there are several smaller shops that sell fruits and vegetables. I know all the people who work in these supermarket…

Capitalism says if the majority of people agree with you they will spend their money at the supermarkets w/ the friendly clerks.

No, not at all. It's more subtle than that.

Suppose the minimal cost solution has a cost of c.

Suppose there is an extra "human touch" factor that costs x extra. So the total cost is c+x.

Suppose there are n customers, of which m prefer the human touch.

In a world with humans everywhere, it costs everyone c+x/n to deliver a product that satisfies everyone.

In a world where two solutions are competing, one with humans and one without, it costs c+x/m to deliver a product that satisfies m, and c to satisfy everyone else.

The subset m that prefers the human touch has to pay more. But notice there's no magical majority cutoff here; that's not how it maps out. It's a curve that gradually increases the cost the lower the m:n ratio is, until it becomes a very expensive boutique service that only very wealthy people can afford. And the increasing slope makes it hard to fight.

It is in fact people with the least sensitivity to price and preference for the human touch that will help maintain the status quo. And those people are usually in the minority.

Re: Amazon Go

#537

Post by mcintyre1994 » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #486

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Waitrose you can use your own rucksack without getting flagged!

At M&S, you must wait to get approval after indicating that you're using your own bags. Awful system. I've had nothing but trouble with the self-checkouts I've used in the UK. I'm quite slow and methodical about it, but the machines always manage to inexplicably fuck up halfway through.

I find in Tesco and the Coop (don't think I've used M&S) they let you say you're using your own bags, but they assume that's a carrier bag and complain at my rucksack. I always leave packing until the end if I can now, although they'll still complain about unexpected items even after paying..

Re: Amazon Go

#538

Post by mikeash » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

Periodic wrote: post #514

mikeash wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's true, then you have nothing to fear. People will pay extra to shop at stores with human cashiers, and the machine-driven stores will not be able to compete. However, I suspect that when presented with the choice, people will take the machine store in exchange for lower prices. And I suspect that you suspect the same thing, otherwise you wouldn't be concerned.

What is cheapest in the short term is often not the best in the long run. Economics assumes that the long-term consequences are priced into all decisions, but those consequences may not be clear and people with limited means have to make some very hard trade-offs. The costs may also be put on society as a whole and not borne by the individual. It can be helpful to limit those options as a society. My best guess at th…

That's a good point. It seemed to me that they were making the case that people consciously valued the experience, but maybe it's a hidden value.

It seems to me that there must be better ways to give people social interaction besides making some people sit at a cash register for eight hours a day and making a bunch of other people wait in lines to be served. But that's a tougher argument to make.

Re: Amazon Go

#539

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

delegate wrote: post #387

Look, I know this might not be a popular view here on HN, but I think this is useless. And bad. I'm not talking about the technology behind it (I think it's an amazing achievement).. I live in Barcelona and I have at least 5 medium-sized supermarkets within 5 minutes walking distance from my home. Plus there are several smaller shops that sell fruits and vegetables. I know all the people who work in these supermarket…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Go

#540

Post by hackermailman » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

excalibur wrote: post #91

What happens when you don't have enough money available to Amazon to cover all the things you grabbed? Do they give you a window to return items before banning you from the store and/or notifying police?

What happens if somebody compromises Amazon accounts by the hundreds and hires a shoplifting crew to clean out that store everyday, selling the goods for 1/2 price on the black market.

Retail organized theft is already a major problem here and this is with stores that have F/T security. There is no shortage of drug addicts willing to jack items for $0.10 per $1 retail value, the goods are then exported and sold in China for things like toothpaste, babyfood, ect.