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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

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Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#531

Post by knocte »

mtgx wrote: post #53
verganileonardo wrote: post #2

2nd time in less than 12 months. probably, we are going to see a surge in telegram downloads/usage today.

Too bad they're switching to a messenger that can easily be subverted by governments and doesn't come with E2E encryption by default. Might as well use Hangouts or Skype. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2016/04/30/russia-telegram-h...

I prefer open source software that lacks features (e.g. E2E, which could be implemented by someone), than proprietary software that "supposedly" has some features (like E2E) which you cannot verify (that is, Whatsapp says they have that feature, but their software not being opensource cannot guarantee anyone that they are stating the truth).

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#532

Post by Cyph0n »

zorked wrote: post #528
gtirloni wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In countries with fragile democracies (or that have recently come out of a dictatorship, like Brazil since 1985), when people say "institutions are strong/weak" they are talking about Congress, the Legal system, Law Enforcement, etc. They are often trying to say that "the law means something" as opposed to elites/politicians/etc ruling the country as they wish, according to personal interests. Telcos and App provider…

I'm talking about the institutions that defend Brazilians' access to basic communications infrastructure in the face of any random judge trying to rule against mathematics. Check the US for example, Apple was able to fight the government's request and prevail _before_ the government did anything about it, not after. In Brazil, Tim Cook would have been arrested right away.

If Brazil had an Apple equivalent, the situation would have been handled the same way. I wonder how many smaller companies in the US had to comply or die? See Lavabit [1]. I'm sure there are have been many other similar occurrences.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#533

Post by mirimir »

ricksplat wrote: post #525
mirimir wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense to me. But there really is no international law that's coherent and enforceable. It's a hard problem.

I think given that, it is reasonable for local jurisdictions to act as they see fit.

For everyone to act as they see fit, I believe.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#534

Post by Mikushi »

necessity wrote: post #329
zanny wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds incredibly dystopian. A proprietary communication protocol made by a foreign company dominating all communications without recourse sounds like something out of 1984. I mean, if your doctor is using it, you know you are screwed the day Facebook does anything you disagree with, because you are wholly dependent on them at that point. That was why we even developed interoperable federated messaging protocols…

Dystopian only in the mind of a sci-fi fan. In practice it's a free communication service that helped millions to connect. No one forced people to use WhatsApp like something from 1984, people chose it from the various alternatives. In fact, a lot of people prefer Telegram, and a lot use neither, preferring good old cellphone conversations. Oh wait, isn't that a closed protocol that dominates all offline communicatio…

You are under the impression that people in 1984 are forced into that position. These situations don't happen by force, it's gradual change over time, like the frog you slowly boil.

What is dystopian is the amount of control corporations have on our day to day lives, as well as the freedom to study and follow our every moves and thoughts and do so for profit or other ends. That is dystopian, not the technology itself, the usage that they make of it and the obliviousness of the vast majority of its users as to what they are up to with it.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#535

Post by marklgr »

newjersey wrote: post #530
patall wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your problem here? He does not shut down WhatsApp in total or request info for US user or anything like that, only in Brazil. This does not affect you at all. If they do not obey the law in another country, they do not get access there. Their activities in any other country do not change.

One problem I have is free trade. Can the US just randomly ban one of Brazil's exports? I mean the US likely exports more to Brazil than imports from it but if this weren't the case...

The US have always strictly controlled what they imported (if only via tariff) and what they exported.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#536

Post by ricksplat »

mirimir wrote: post #533
ricksplat wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think given that, it is reasonable for local jurisdictions to act as they see fit.

For everyone to act as they see fit, I believe.

You mean as a Freeman of the Land? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land

As an ideological position it has some interesting points to make, but in a contemporary legal setting it's difficult to find footing.

My personal position is informed by Hobbes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(book) ) in that we have to make compromise with our individual liberty to bring about a greater good.

> "No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death: and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short."

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#537

Post by ithkuil »

gcb0 wrote: post #397
eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for this? Why would bank accounts need to be situated in Brazil for these deals to happen? That doesn't make sense.

you can pay whats app directly via the operator. e.g. http://www.tim.com.br/sp/para-voce/planos/pre-pago/turbo-wha... you can't do that in brazil without having the papers to do business there. in fact, you can't even sell anything without the right documents. Just like everywhere else.

paying whatsapp?

I don't know portuguese so I didn't actually read what the deal is.

Is this a service where subscribers pay the carrier a fee for 30 days of unlimited data traffic to whatsapp servers (VoIP excluded) + 50M of data ?

If yes, does that constitute a transaction the consumer makes directy to whatsapp via the operator? I understand that likely whatsapp and TIM (an Italian company btw) might have made some deal and exchanged some money for the use of whatsapp logo etc, but I guess that transaction could have been done anywhere.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#538

Post by raverbashing »

shultays wrote: post #527
mliker wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

storing data for 1 billion users and maintaining consistency is a pain the butt operationally. Whatsapp isn't storing the data. If they are, they're spending hundreds of millions on servers for data they can't monetize easily without alienating all of its users.

It is just text records, I doubt it will take hundreds of millions, even at whatsapp levels

No, a lot of pictures and audio messages as well go through Whatsapp

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#539

Post by tremon »

necessity wrote: post #449
gcb0 wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except you are wrong. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T... every country treats certain content as criminal as they wish. Where the servers are is just a minor detail.

No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass, specially if its a decentralized service. Nevertheless its an outrageous retrenchment of our freedom.

No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass

All laws are easy to bypass, what's your point? Ever tried to go 60 in a 30km/h zone? Lack of 100% enforcement does not make a law useless.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#540

Post by kuschku »

gambiting wrote: post #286
kuschku wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don’t publish your app in those countries.

But....why not? As a person interested in selling my app, why would I not publish it in the largest number of markets available?

Selling apps is like selling any other product.

I can’t sell medical marihuana in most states of the US – and I don’t go and try, and then complain about getting arrested.

Instead, if I wanted to start a business doing that, I’d check out where it would be legal, and in which ways, and sell my product in those markets.

Why do you assume you can sell your product in markets without having checked the legality, and then complain when they ban your product because it violates the local law?

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