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Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

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Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#531
Life is a video game. Well really a series of minigames. Some of the minigames aren’t as fun as others, but you have to pass them to move on. Right now you’re on the ‘get hired as a developer’ minigame. You beat that minigame by memorizing things like Algorithms and Data Structures.

Yes it’s stupid. Yes it’s not something you’ll ever actually do on the job. No it’s not a real indicator of your actual programming ability. But it’s what you have to do to beat this part of the game and move on.

And, yes it sucks, but it’s not THAT hard in the grand scheme of thing. Basically what’s happening is someone is saying “we’d like to hire you for a job that pays significantly above the national average, is safe, low stress and generally pretty easy when you think about it. All we ask in return is that you brush up on some things that you have already had to learn anyway.”

I would also argue that it’s at least partially about seeing how driven you are. Everyone knows that you’re probably going to get asked Algorithm and DS questions in an interview. There are literally several very popular books entirely dedicated to that fact. So you can either have a self-centered, egotistical, “I don’t think I should have to know this and I know better than everyone else so I am not going to learn it” attitude, or an open, eager “I really want this job and I know they will probably ask me some of these kinds of questions, so if I have to take a week to brush up on these concepts I am more than willing to do so attitude.” Which do you think makes for a more attractive potential employee?

Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think hiring is really steered to avoid hiring idiots. After all it's the interviewer that will have to answer if they hire someone who can't do the job. So all questions are very technical/random and difficult. Most of these people just lookup stuff from textbooks and fling them at interviewees. It eliminates the top and bottom contenders while catching mostly people who just came out of school (or ridicilously sm…

Hiring interviews often contain shibboleths that serve as cultural markers. It's a way to exclude people who are different while claiming that hiring is a meritocracy.

Any examples?

Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#533
You're looking in the wrong companies. Based on the things you're solving you'd be good for smaller companies or even the startup world. These usually look at your experience more, and pay more attention to what you've done. Bigger companies don't care about you, or what you did as much. They want to test you right there. Bottom line, a smaller organization will value your open source work more, if that is what you're looking for.

Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#534
OP, it sounds like you work by looking up and remember solutions, and assume everyone does the same. You're saying the questions are BS because you haven't seen the solution in a long time (or ever):

> it has been a long time

> I vaguely remember

> this would have been a trivial problem to solve from memory, but that’s besides the point

> Do I remember how to implement those algorithms? No

> I am not a recent college graduate anymore who has breadth-first search memorized

> I haven’t implemented BFS in years, there is no way I can come up with a solution right here and now

> If, and when [...] I will go look it up

I normally wouldn't point it out since it sounds really condescending, but after https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11554894 I don't know what to assume anymore:

They don't want you to remember or memorize solutions, they want you to be able to implement it given just an informally explained approach (which you may also be responsible for coming up with).

Converting ideas into code without having seen the code before is a realistic, desirable and not at all uncommon skill.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a candidate to be able to write code given the description "These objects have a value and links to similar objects. We want to find a certain value by first looking at all our nearest neighbors, then at their nearest neighbors, then at theirs, and so forth.", even if they had never heard of graph theory or BFS, or seen code for it before.

Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#535
post #395
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America. It's a bit hyperbolic, but is it really discrimination to want to hire a person who meets all your requirements? Oh, single person. Ha, it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of civil status. They meant it as "one person".

Apologies, I misread your original comment. I thought they wanted a person who wasn't in a relationship.

They would probably prefer that as well

Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#536
post #254
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. The author's inability to write a breadth-first-search under stress, for example, very much highlights this, in my opinion. I sort-of agree that these specific tasks shouldn't be used as an indicator of programming skills, but a breadth-first-search is really quite simple. It's mode of operation is in the name, and even if you haven't implemented one in a while, you should be able to derive some val…

The simplicity has nothing to do with it. For example, if you happen to be a very introverted person, then the social awkwardness of working in front of someone you don't know is enough to disrupt all your thinking abilities significantly. You're not only worried about the technical parts of the problem, but you are also worried about things like, "Oh god, I typed that semicolon in the wrong spot. This interviewer is…

It's bro culture. They don't want introverts -- they want people to drink and watch the game with who they can high five.

Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think about OP's comments that the algorithm questions were unrelated to the front-end positions?

Complaining that breadth-first-search is irrelevant to frontend dev seems concerning to me. The DOM is a tree; so are JSON structures; so are website directory structures; so are half the data structures you will encounter in most businesses (departments, categories, etc.). You WILL need to traverse a tree in a frontend position at some point. I absolutely want to know whether a frontend developer has a variety of to…

That would be incredibly rare to implement a breadth first algorithm in front end work. I mean you could pick any question about the most obscure browser quirks would probably be more relevant.

Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#538

The OP is describing the new grad tech hiring process. It looks like an exam because it's for hiring people straight out of school. For experienced people, it's not what you know, it's who you know. You tell your connected friend that you're looking for a job, he tells you who's hiring and gives you a recommendation. You still have an interview, but it's no longer adversarial, it's a formality, it's friendly, it's ju…

The gauntlet also applies if you've spent the better part of a decade in an industry that recently collapsed, and your connected friends are either unemployed or living in constant fear of the layoff notice. cough oilandgas cough

Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#539

Hiring isn't broken, dude. You just don't interview well, and you seem antagonistic even to the idea that your cachet and skills, insofar as they exist, aren't useful to the market. That's a problem -- for you. Interviews exist because employers need a way to quantify and qualify your ability. Typical computer science problems are a (flawed, but concrete) way of doing that. No reasonable interviewer expects you to re…

I don't interview well. Technology for me is exciting because of its potential to bring happiness to people. If someone tells me that the product I am working on has a security issue because it does not follow some the security portions of the RFC correctly, I will be delighted to read it carefully, study arcane encoding algorthms etc and implement code that brings up the compliance to an acceptable level. If you ask…

Yeah, but how do you measure it objectively?

Re: Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiring interviews often contain shibboleths that serve as cultural markers. It's a way to exclude people who are different while claiming that hiring is a meritocracy.

Any examples?

The whole idea of writing your code on a whiteboard.
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