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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#521

Post by belorn »

Steuard wrote: post #476
belorn wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I type on a regular basis the word "woman" in emacs. Do I take a tiny but not quite negligible emotional hit of feeling excluded every single time for doing that? what about people who program ada and type the name each day? Do you think most people even will notice that the 3 letter actually represent a name, a person, a woman, each time?

Context matters. I take it from your comment that you're a man. If you were in a female-dominated profession like nursing or elementary school teaching then yes, I think things like that would wear on you pretty quickly after a while. Every time, it would be a tiny little reminder that no matter how hard you try or how successful you are, you'll still be a bit of an outsider.[0] Some people would probably be more con…

Is it a fact that the 3 letter "bro" reference bro culture and not brother?

Man, woman, brother... next command should be sister. Its a themed naming scheme.

But my point is that very few people will even think about a command they type in, especially if its just 3 letters. There are only so many 3 letter combinations, and even fewer that represent words.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#522

Post by aiiane »

baddox wrote: post #325
blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

Did you consider that perhaps the name has nothing to do with "locker-room atmosphere," and is merely a pun on the "man" command, which itself has nothing to do with gender?

"Did you consider" that by using 'bro' as a pun on 'man', it inherently makes it about gender?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#523

Post by bliti »

nicolethenerd wrote: post #338

I'm a woman, and I think it's hilarious and not at all sexist. Had to stop myself from laughing out loud because I'm in a library. Is the association that some people will make with "brogrammer" culture a bit unfortunate? Sure. But there's nothing about this program that's making any assertions about bros, or their gender, or anything else - heck, it's not even really talking about people , it's just a play on the wo…

That is an excellent point. I had never thought of Siri as a woman. Its just a program.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#524

Post by ceol »

rds2000 wrote: post #501
glesica wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is offensive because it has high potential to create a hostile environment for women. This isn't just me and a few people making shit up, read my comment, it's obvious that the authors knew they were on shaky ground. They tried to defuse the situation with a cute little comment, but it would have been better to just change the name. Read this comment for a better explanation if you're actually confused: https://ne…

What creates a hostile environment for woman is where a sector, made of predominately men is scrutinized with a hysterical "boy who cried wolf" mentality. It's a vicious cycle. 1. First there is a tiny group of feminists, mostly consisting of marketers, call themselves coders, but if you were look them up, they're twittering and having fun more than building. They seem very happy to stir indignation. 2. Then, people…

> but if you were look them up, they're twittering and having fun more than building.

The irony of this comment being in a long-winded post on Hacker News is lost, perhaps? You do realize the vast majority of "programmers" aren't building 100% of the time.

Judging by that and the fact you throw out "feminist" like it's an insult, I'm going to say you've got some pretty heavy bias.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#525

Post by ceol »

glesica wrote: post #346
mumbi wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for a man to be offended by this FOR the sake of women, you must be one pussy whipped mofo. let the down votes commence.

So because I find words and actions that might belittle another person offensive, there's something wrong with me? What would you call me if I objected to a racist joke? Would you claim that I was somehow "whipped" by the targeted minority group? Considering the feelings of others is not a defect, it's part of our humanity.

Good on your for sticking up to these jackasses. I've long since given up arguing it here, but it makes me so happy to see folks like you and others in this thread shouting these idiots down.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#526

Post by donotsurveil »

RobertLong wrote: post #184

I'm glad the downvote system exists but, what happens if it's the only entry for a command? # Cleans malware from system sudo rm -rf / bro thanks 4 to upvote (1) bro ...no 4 to downvote (9)

With a user provided content database, you have a problem: users can input crap content. So you devise a way for user to sort the crappiest from the less crappy and now you have two problems, and so on.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#527

Post by Fomite »

LinXitoW wrote: post #456
mscarborough wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, we have enough issues with improving women's place in STE. It's not like we need to invent new ways to keep technology male. I've helped different women with less experience in commandline stuff and linux/unix in general. In the workplace, and with tutoring middle/high school kids of both genders. If I ever had to say "go check the manpage, and the bropage" I would feel like a huge asshole.

Why is the "man" page somehow better?

Because a shortening of "Manual" is not gendered. "Bro" is.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#528

Post by bosie »

tga_d wrote: post #486
overgard wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Brogrammer culture is hostile to women (at least in the sense that most women would feel less comfortable in a workplace dominated by that culture). It doesn't sound like you're arguing against that point. I don't even know what that is. Outside the bubble of HN I doubt most people have even heard the phrase. "Bro" for most people references dumb fratboys. Maybe it's a word that's offensive to fratboys, but I can't…

I don't know that the problem is so much "offence" as it is reinforcing what has historically been an exclusive culture. As has been pointed out, regardless of the intent of the name, it is going to put off some people. Imagine sitting next to a friend, perhaps just getting introduced to the command line, and telling them, "Hmm... let's check what Bro says!" It just gives a certain connotation. As a bit more extreme…

considering that in the mid-80s 38% of the workforce in computer science was female with a decline to ~30% in 1999, I would not say that it has been 'historically an exclusive culture'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing#Statistics_...

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#529

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

teh_klev wrote: post #507
chrisrhoden wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really a shame that in the community with which you are currently participating, the word has acquired so many negative associations; I agree. I also call my (female) SO "bro" – in addition to a broad range of friends and family – in specific contexts. But I would never consider the word neutral or inclusive in the context of the tech community. Too much baggage. If any of the people I call "bro" were programmer…

As soon as I saw the title I knew there'd be this brouhaha. For over twenty years my circle of male friends have been calling each other "bro", my female pals call their brothers "bro". All this was way before "bro" was misappropriated as a term of offence just because of one word - "brogrammer". This thread has seriously deviated into the twilight zone of reductio ad absurdum.

I'm pretty sure the term "bro" was being used in particularly boneheaded circles as a term of misogynistic 'banter' way before the word 'brogrammer'.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#530

Post by andypants »

nicolethenerd wrote: post #338

I'm a woman, and I think it's hilarious and not at all sexist. Had to stop myself from laughing out loud because I'm in a library. Is the association that some people will make with "brogrammer" culture a bit unfortunate? Sure. But there's nothing about this program that's making any assertions about bros, or their gender, or anything else - heck, it's not even really talking about people , it's just a play on the wo…

Before today, I always thought "brogrammer" was just a joke phrase, not serious.
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