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Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

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Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#521

Post by shimman »

hakunin wrote: post #197
shimman wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump is bad, but please let's not excuse corporate neoliberal dems that are totally fine with insider trading, legalized bribes, and are quite proud that their consultant campaign workers get lucrative gigs at corporations/boards due to insider access. I mean we have people like Gillibrand that are openly in bed with the crypto industry while somehow decrying what Trump is doing. Feels like they're upset that Trump…

When I hear people making these claims (all unproven theories, or misrepresentation of what really happens), I want to know: what happened in democratic administrations that went in favor of a large corporate donor and against the public? Any specific example where they diverged, and a politician ruled in favor of the corp, and against their constituents?

What is unproven here? This is all found in various wiki articles or just being alive at the time (yes Obama did bailout banks over people, yes Clinton did condemn large swaths of the US to poverty).

I honestly don't understand your other question, you can watch any primary challenge race across the country and you'll see these dynamics play out. We're also dealing with cumulative effects that have taken place over decades (NAFTA is still impactful in many areas that if you run as D these districts you are guaranteed to lose).

If you're from a certain region and want specific examples LMK.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#522

Post by shimman »

vannevar wrote: post #68
shimman wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump is bad, but please let's not excuse corporate neoliberal dems that are totally fine with insider trading, legalized bribes, and are quite proud that their consultant campaign workers get lucrative gigs at corporations/boards due to insider access. I mean we have people like Gillibrand that are openly in bed with the crypto industry while somehow decrying what Trump is doing. Feels like they're upset that Trump…

No one is excusing them. But it's worth pointing out that in every aspect of government ethics reform, from campaign financing to insider trading by government officials, the legislation promoted by Democrats is stronger than that promoted by Republicans, who often not only don't promote reform but actively oppose it. For example, the recent lukewarm ban on insider trading was opposed by Democrats on the grounds that…

That's great if you're talking to a high schooler that has never been politically active, but I'm literally a democratic party operative. I've attend state conventions, state nominating conventions, platform conventions, DNC twice. This is not the democratic party I want to part of and why I'm extremely thankful people-led organizations like WFP and DSA are actively trying to change things for the better.

None of what you are describing has any real momentum behind it and for how many decades will you let politicians fails you until you do something in response?

Like bro, the democratic party isn't an opposition party. There is a reason why the party has majority unfavorability rating [1] throughout Trump's entire second term. How do you square this?

This is a fucking terrible sign and it's why progressive candidates have seen a massive insurgency this cycle and why the corporate do-nothing dems are so scared shitless that they might have to actually answer why they are okay with genocide + corporate welfare programs while doing nothing to help people materially.

You say no one is excusing them, then spend your entire comment excusing them.

What do you actually do politically?

[1] https://fiftyplusone.news/polls/favorability/democratic-part...

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#523

Post by yubblegum »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #386

89% only think that? Wanna talk about the enrichment of US politicans? Not just the Trump and the Pelosi but also a serious discussion about the net worth of, say, the Obama, Ilhan Omar and Kamala Harris, etc.? And the argument: "But they only made millions, while Trump made billions" ain't a valid one. It's not "better" if you only manage to steal less: you're still a thief. A less successful thief, but still just a…

I was looking at the picture in Reuters of Putin meeting Jared Kushner and my thoughts were that our government is no longer a government of the people for the people but oligarchs for their creepy spawn. Also this Red-Blue nonsense is wearing thin. It's really a spectrum of corruption at this point.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#524

Post by Arodex »

swed420 wrote: post #496
the_gastropod wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response is all fluff. Yes. Raising union membership is not fluff. Actually forgiving student loans of 800k Americans, after the Supreme Court partisanly blocked your efforts to forgive them for 5M is not fluff either. Lots of union members, like you, lack the ability to tell shit from Shinola. That’s a huge problem, and one I have no clue how to solve. Con men are, sadly, effective despite being, y’know, con me…

> both sides Your type has only one line, don't you? Tell you what, the next time somebody like Bernie Sanders comes along, don't stab him in the back a thousand times. Then you might actually have a chance at beating that gameshow host one day!

The same Bernie Sanders who backed Fetterman and Platner?

Bernie Sanders is where he is because he's all talk and fluff, and not because of backstabbing. Meanwhile, your bothsidesism is actually backstabbing any progressive cause that doesn't reach your high bar.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#525

Post by estearum »

shimman wrote: post #515
FireBeyond wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feels like they're upset that Trump exposed how rotten this game has gotten. You make it sound like he's the one calling this out, "Drain the swamp" style, when instead he's the one elevating it to the next level. A month ago he sat for a TV interview in the White House, and he said, verbatim, "My children are insider trading all the time". And it was so on-brand for Trump's administration that it barely moved the…

Don't disagree, take your example of using cryptocurrency to massively break banking regulations plus the ability to make rug pulls a known feature. Now what do you expect democratic politicians to actually do about it since they have no issues working with the crypto industry while taking their donations? Gillibrand is a great example of this, crying about Trump getting rich off cryptoscams but not willing to actual…

You sound like a disgruntled tankie, no?

Is that what's happening here?

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#526

Post by hakunin »

DANmode wrote: post #503
hakunin wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the word is _real_. What we had before is a normal amount of corruption. There's no such thing as having zero crime. Just like we can say that air travel is safe, despite there being incidents, we can say there is no corruption, despite there being incidents. The talk of shadowy cabals and conspiracies are fashionable, but never proven. Corruption that actually meaningfully hurts the country and the world at scal…

> What we had before is a normal amount of corruption. There's no such thing as having zero crime. These two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Also, “normal” isn’t good. In fact, “normal” often seems like a horrible bar to aim for. > Corruption that actually meaningfully hurts the country and the world at scale (in recent history) only started with this administration. You don’t do the sort of systemic damage observa…

Observant people pointing out corruption is not corruption. Real prosecuted corruption exists. That's why we have courts. Otherwise, it's conjecture that everyone is too eager to believe. Any behavior that can be explained, among other things, with corruption, is just added to the roster, because being cynical protects you from accidentally coming off foolish or naive. But it isn't serious.

This is the first time in recent history we went from normal amount of incidents of corruption to straight up corrupt administration.

> “normal” often seems like a horrible bar to aim for.

If "normal" is a horrible bar to aim for, you should figure out what a world with zero crime would look like. I don't think you would ever want that world if you take time to think about it.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#527

Post by mulmen »

wahern wrote: post #514
mulmen wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. > Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. The 13th amendment specifically mentions penal labor as an exempt form of slavery. Take your criticism to th…

Setting aside textual analysis and how commas are used in the constitution, the point is that people claim not just that slavery is allowed, but that mandatory penal labor is slavery, and implicitly the same slavery that was ostensibly abolished. So do you agree or not agree that mandatory penal slavery is an extension of 19th century and earlier American slavery. Because that's what the movement and rhetoric are say…

> So do you agree or not agree that mandatory penal slavery is an extension of 19th century and earlier American slavery.

I agree that mandatory penal slavery (as practiced in US prisons in the 21st century) is an extension of 19th century and earlier American slavery.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#528

Post by hakunin »

autoexec wrote: post #504
hakunin wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying “US corruption isn’t new” is a truism. There are probably isolated incidents, and many unproven theories, but everyone is quick to agree with this statement because it’s a common feeling everyone has now for some reason. The reality of corruption is likely much smaller and more boring than people think. What we’re witnessing now is what should be called corruption. That corruption that everyone has been scream…

> Saying “US corruption isn’t new” is a truism. There are probably isolated incidents, and many unproven theories, but everyone is quick to agree with this statement because it’s a common feeling everyone has now for some reason. The reality of corruption is likely much smaller and more boring than people think. Corruption in the US been extensively documented and proven. The revolving door at regulatory bodies, dark…

You listed a bunch of things only some of which are bad, and none of which are clearly corrupt. Did you know that things can be bad, and still not corrupt?

When you delete a customer database at work, it doesn't have to be because you're corrupt.

You're believing conjecture, because it makes you feel smarter, like you can see through the facade. The reality is that you're probably afraid to come off naive. We have to be stronger and fight this urge to cry wolf about everything, because sometimes real ones show up.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#529

Post by DANmode »

hakunin wrote: post #526
DANmode wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we had before is a normal amount of corruption. There's no such thing as having zero crime. These two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Also, “normal” isn’t good. In fact, “normal” often seems like a horrible bar to aim for. > Corruption that actually meaningfully hurts the country and the world at scale (in recent history) only started with this administration. You don’t do the sort of systemic damage observa…

Observant people pointing out corruption is not corruption. Real prosecuted corruption exists. That's why we have courts. Otherwise, it's conjecture that everyone is too eager to believe. Any behavior that can be explained, among other things, with corruption, is just added to the roster, because being cynical protects you from accidentally coming off foolish or naive. But it isn't serious. This is the first time in…

Unprosecuted / unconvicted corruption is not corruption. That’s your position?

Yeah, I’m all set here. Talk weird circles with another user.

Re: Record-High 89% in U.S. Say Government Corruption Widespread

#530

Post by hakunin »

DANmode wrote: post #529
hakunin wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Observant people pointing out corruption is not corruption. Real prosecuted corruption exists. That's why we have courts. Otherwise, it's conjecture that everyone is too eager to believe. Any behavior that can be explained, among other things, with corruption, is just added to the roster, because being cynical protects you from accidentally coming off foolish or naive. But it isn't serious. This is the first time in…

Unprosecuted / unconvicted corruption is not corruption. That’s your position? Yeah, I’m all set here. Talk weird circles with another user.

That's literally not what I said.

Your position seems to be that if it can be corruption, it is corruption.

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