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I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

scotthyoung.com

521–530 of 559 posts

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#521

The reason schooling is hard to change - here in the US - is because the teachers unions and politicians work together to reduce hours, reliance on standards, eliminate "work" (homework isn't good for them!), and increase spend and pay. Government is incredibly inefficient at most tasks - on average things the government does cost twice as much - but it's incredibly terrible at education. Spending has increased - per…

Many, perhaps most, of the teachers are underpaid. If spending more money isn't helping, there are probably too many middle-managers sucking up the money. Remove some of the middle-managers and divert their money to the teachers.

I keep hearing this. I have yet to find a teacher or a school district or a government employee or department or organization of any kind that didn't clamour for more more more funds.

We spend twice what we did in 1970's in real terms; results ... the same.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#522
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> such a thing would almost certainly fail catastrophically in a contemporary American classroom. It definitely would fail but isn't it an order of magnitude more likely that's due to the parents, teachers' unions, and other factors rather than American students are neurologically different than Chinese students and therefore learn differently? If they do have much better outcomes (I have no idea if this is the case…

Yeah, here [1] are the PISA outcomes. PISA is an international test that's generally the gold standard for comparison of educational outcomes on an international level. [1] Over the last testing year China was #2, the test prior #1. Singapore was #1 in the most recent period, and is around 75% ethnic Chinese. Whether the differences are genetic or cultural is interesting but doesn't really matter. The reality is that…

The real question is how you 'do at life'. Some tests are a proxy but not all. And even when it is, you can 'teach the test' and get worse results at life even though the test itself is good. Too often we are not sure what is a good proxy.

That is the grain of salt all education comparisons need to be made with.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it obvious to you that children should be coerced into learning something? Let's say that you have some curriculum C that you think is vital for children to learn, and you want as many children as possible to learn C. Even ignoring ethics, it's not obvious to me that attempting to coerce all children into learning C is the best way to accomplish your goal!

I'm not the parent comment author, but my guess is that they probably meant persuade or inspire as much if not more than coerce. Most respectful interpretation and all... Why is it obvious that an educator should do their best to teach a student something even when they don't want to learn? Well for one, it's their job, and two... Children especially are not good judges of which knowledge and skills will benefit them…

I'm sorry if I was uncharitable. That certainly was not my intention. The only usage of "coerce" I'm aware of is in direct opposition to "persuade" or "inspire," and I'm not aware of any serious debate about whether children should be persuaded/inspired/encouraged to learn things.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#524

One revolution that backfired massively: the departure from phonics reading to some sort of contextual whole-word one, where students were reprimanded for trying to sound the word out. By extension the loss of basic Greek & Latin has had a terrible impact; at least teach just enough to learn that most English words are compounds of simpler Greek/Latin words strung together (like German's adjectiveadjectiveadjectiveno…

As someone who took both a 4 year latin curriculum and a year of koine Greek in HS: unqualified no.

Really wish I were fluent in Spanish or Japanese or really anything spoken.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#525
I do think that there should be a mix of learning opportunity as some students do better with different types of instruction.

Some can read the textbook and just get it. Some need to talk about the subject.

Some need to ask a lot of questions.

There are so many factors that are at play. Structure is good it gives clear expectations. Students typically strive to meet clear objectives. If there is no clear objective they often struggle to achieve much.

A child’s home life plays largely into their ability to learn. Sleep and nutrition. Stress levels.

You can see it in a student if a family member is ill or if they have some sort of stress or struggles at home. They don’t perform at the level they would otherwise.

For some students grasping basic mathematics for is difficult. They can memorize the steps of solving certain problems but there is a disconnect between what they are doing and how it can be applied to other problems. These students can be sometimes helped with kinaesthetic learning. Suddenly when you are manipulating real things it makes sense.

I would say too much focus is put on teachers in a way as parents have nearly the same amount of input into a child’s learning process.

Do they respect and listen to the teacher. Are they showing up to school ready to learn and listen.

Teachers are not parents. They do sometimes fill that role or try to fill the void left by parents but this is not something teachers can realistically do for all of their students and stay mentally well.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#526
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most teaching until uni is mostly forced upon students. That is the problem. It should not be forced. People naturally love learning and its a matter of facilitating that. Not going into details here as I have recent comments on this and other threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48397182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48409530

I know a lot of people who believe this, and I think it just doesn't bear out. I am 4. I have many interests. I would love to read books about those interests, but in order to do this, I have to do phonics drills and practice sounding out words. But I am 4, and I do not have the cognitive skills to force myself to do unpleasant practice to acquire a skill which I will some day cherish. I must be made to learn. I am 1…

> I am 4. I have many interests. I would love to read books about those interests, but in order to do this, I have to do phonics drills and practice sounding out words. But I am 4, and I do not have the cognitive skills to force myself to do unpleasant practice to acquire a skill which I will some day cherish. I must be made to learn.

Maybe we shouldn't be forcing people to do drills and practice at a time when they lack the cognitive skills to force themselves to do drills and practice, and we most certainly shouldn't be penalizing those who struggle with such a regimen. We live in a marvelous age where you can learn about things through a wide range of media which do not require any one particular gating skill. So long as children are engaged, eventually they're going to reach a point where there are so many things they want to read that the effort to read is no longer daunting. If well structured, they'll find that in their previous learning they've actually already picked up quite a bit of understanding that helps them.

The very worst thing you can do to a child is try to shove them through a process that was not designed for them, pressure them to succeed where they were set up to fail, then tell them the failure is due to a lack of effort on their part.

The work is in setting up education programs where interest in cultivated and challenges are calibrated to the level of a student's abilities such that what they want to learn and what they need to learn are aligned. This is not easy, but life does not guarantee there is an easy way to do everything. Children are not the only ones who must learn the value of putting in the effort to reap a bountiful reward.

> That said, if left to their own devices, they simply will not do what is best for them. You have to make them do stuff sometimes, including learning.

Of course inexperienced children left to their own devices may not make the best decisions, and experienced adults must at times force them to do things for their own good. However you have to actually know what is better for them. So many terrible practices have been perpetuated because "I was ultimately better off for it." Once you accept that no one who came before you knew what they were doing, that they were all working with less information available than what you have now, and that in many cases you succeeded in spite of those shortcomings, not because of them, then you become cautious when playing the "I know better" card.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The study picked an artificial and useless proxy. What did tutored students go on to do? Were they over represented in Nobel Prizes, hedge fund billionaires, heads of state? Or did they do well on a meaningless test and then forget all about whatever they “learned” just like everyone else? The entire field is absolutely littered with this problem. Everyone is targeting cholesterol and not all cause mortality.

What evidence would change your mind?

Strong correlations to actual outcomes. That can be career outcomes or otherwise but actual outcomes people care about. Not test scores.

We have a zillion natural experiments because there are so many schools in the world and within many of them teachers given a lot of leeway.

Does any of it make a damn bit of difference controlling for everything else? We have Waldorf schools teaching woodworking and cram schools shoving AP courses at eighth graders—-that’s a large difference, what do life outcomes show?

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never taught myself, so take this with a grain of salt (though I do think it is extremely hard to do well). I did, however, have a teacher who taught an advanced subject and I found his instruction so good that I did not have to bother with homework and assignments if I was happy with B grades — as I wasn't particularly motivated, only occassionaly did I put in the effort for an A. I could, however, see the level o…

schooling has to be designed around "average" teachers. Having someone who is gifted at teaching is great, but there wouldn't be many teachers if that was the standard. I often think when people idealize what schooling should be like it always seems like they are imagining teachers who are gifted.

I agree. We seem to enjoy getting excited about ways of improving education in our heads, but somehow keep forgetting or think lightly about the actual teachers in reality.

Teachers are always going to be one of the biggest bottlenecks: no matter what fancy perfect education method people come up with, it's still not going to be any better than what an average teacher can teach. Or equivalently, what an average teacher understands herself. And in fact, the greater the discrepancy between the theory and the teachers, the worse the actual outcome will probably be...

If we still want to introduce some new fancy ways, at the very least, we have to begin by teaching the teachers, not the students. I think this is true even if we suppose that all the teachers are "gifted" so to speak. Otherwise, teaching isn't a science so each teacher will just do things their own way, which again will probably be a mess. Even gifted people are not all the same. Or if we say that's ok, then we wouldn't need an education system to begin with: just let each teacher teach in their own way and the world should still be great a place-- but I doubt it.

On a side note, I've come to see textbooks as a great invention in that sense: the students can learn a bare minimum even from the dumbest teacher as long as you make sure they follow the text book. Put another way, the textbook is like a baseline meta-teacher teaching the teacher along with the students.. I'm not a teacher myself but I have a lot of teachers around me including family members from whom I've heard this.

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence would change your mind?

Strong correlations to actual outcomes. That can be career outcomes or otherwise but actual outcomes people care about. Not test scores. We have a zillion natural experiments because there are so many schools in the world and within many of them teachers given a lot of leeway. Does any of it make a damn bit of difference controlling for everything else? We have Waldorf schools teaching woodworking and cram schools sh…

That's fair. It helps knowing what would change things. Thank you for sharing! appreciate it

Re: I'm skeptical about efforts to revolutionize schooling

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried various methods on myself. What works: 1. having a lecture on a chalkboard 2. taking notes by hand. Yes, by hand. Something about the act of writing it by hand fixes it in my brain 3. using pencil and paper to do the problems. 4. and what really works is giving an in-person lecture on how to do it What doesn't work: 1. everything else I've watched many instructional videos. Poof, none of it sticks. I've audit…

I mostly agree with you. However, if you imagine yourself sitting down with a set of exercises that you need to figure out how to do, it is true that some well-chosen animations / models will be helpful in that process. You have to do the exercises. But it might be beyond your ability to start doing them straight from the textbook. Crafted didactic material can walk you through initial exercises to the point where yo…

I watched "The Mechanical Universe" videos on newtonian mechanics. They used lots of animations. I found the animations to be too fast and too distracting to be of any use.

The series was created by Dr Goodstein, who was my freshman physics prof. I understood the same material via him scribbling on the blackboard.

I've seen other animations of mathematics, with the same result - confusion.

I suspect the problem is that an animation does not build a mental model in your head. Carefully examining the diagrams and the equations does.

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