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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#521

Post by OJFord »

rmunn wrote: post #394
OJFord wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of the Framework is to run Linux Until recently they've been almost as second-class-Linux-to-Windows as say Dell, but perhaps you just meant 'non-macOS'? (For example, I'm currently struggling to get my early-days pre-ordered 11th gen Intel BIOS updated from v3.07 without a) the official Windows updater; b) modifying the supplied firmware on the instruction of AI or stranger third-parties in unmerged PRs/…

I'm just one datapoint, but my Framework 16 (bought a little over a year ago with no OS, has only ever had Linux installed on it) has never given me trouble with firmware updates. I've updated the BIOS twice, and other firmware, all through `fwupdmgr` with no issues. I bought the AMD chip rather than Intel, it's possible that that was why I had no issues, but I don't actually know.

I'd call that pretty recent :) – fwupdmgr wasn't supported (not as in 'you're on your own', but 'blobs not published to registry') until a few years ago. EFI shell update wasn't available early on. When I say I'm trying to, I'm actually struggling to establish if it's even possible without at least using Windows to jump to a certain version after which I can use EFI/fwupdmgr.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#522

Post by hparadiz »

michaelt wrote: post #509
curt15 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hey can you remove MDM from this Macbook so I can install Linux?" Is there no MDM for Linux clients? How do the big tech companies with Linux developer machines (Google, Facebook, etc) manage their inventory? Do they roll their own MDM?

IT departments can mandate tools like ninjaone and kolide, which let them run queries across the fleet of devices, and (as I understand it) basically gives them root-level remote code execution. The corporate VPN (or equivalent) can then perform 'posture checking' requiring that the tools be installed and working before connecting to the corporate network. Obviously, 99% of Linux users have root on their device so no…

Kolide admin provides a web UI for osquery so you can query things. It allows remote osquery queries but not remote code execution. You generally pair it with CrowdStrike Falcon.

Kolide does a spot check like "is falcon sensor running" but if the user logs in, has the session token created, and then disables whatever the session token would still be valid.

Also Kolide doesn't actually count as an MDM. Has a bunch of missing features. I recently evaluated it.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#523

Post by unsungNovelty »

Moldoteck wrote: post #498
unsungNovelty wrote: post #462

I don't like MacOS. Everytime I talk about setting up a custom PC, people say - buy Mac Mini. No. I don't want MacOS. It's soooo slow workflow wise. I was literally behind my manager for 2 whole years to get him to move me from Macbook Air 11 inch to a linux laptop. He was ready to give me Macbook Pro 2016. But not a Linux laptop, in an org which had them. And I went over his head to get a Linux laptop there. The slo…

Sorry for ignorance, but what workflows do you have that an M3 24gb mac feels slow? I got the basic M1 air and it still works fine

It's not the hardware's fault. It's the software that I don't like. This was the case before and after Apple silicon.From the window management to how I need to setup my computer, everything is slow in MacOS. The UI interactions, how the apps needs to be managed. Everything. I am trying to make it faster. It's not customisable the way Linux is. Maybe I need to be a bit more clear, it is slow FOR ME. Not to mention, after the glass update, I find it very hard to use with respect to UI.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#524

Post by spankibalt »

rbanffy wrote: post #494
kelnos wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that maybe you've just gotten lucky? Laptop components do break. I haven't had Mac laptops in a bunch of years, but just off the top of my head I've had a keyboard key break (MacBook Air), and a mainboard die (MacBook Pro). But if you don't need repairs, you might want upgrades. I have a Framework 13 from 2022 and I expect I won't be buying a full new laptop for many many years. It's great that you've been a…

The whole selling point of the Framework is easy upgrades, thanks to modularity. It is a laptop that’s designed to be your laptop for at least two or three upgrade cycles, which, for Apple, implies a new laptop.

> "It is a laptop that’s designed to be your laptop for at least two or three upgrade cycles, which, for Apple, implies a new laptop."

In all fairness, most Apple users are technically illiterate (hardware-wise). And running upgradeable machines to optimum efficiency necessitates running a redundant setup, e. g. the main bird and a compatible support unit, usually an older one, but capable enough to take over relatively seamlessly for a while, enable diagnostics, facilitate maintenance, and so on.

Most Apple users have only one computer, with their secondary machine the iPhone, itself a neutered simulacrum of a pocket computer, just good enough to do some basic outsourcing of troubleshooting, and to place an order for the next computer of course.

People who gravitate to Frameworks offerings, or similar machines, are just of a completely different mindset than the typical Apple customer. As evidenced by threads like this one. That's also one of the reasons why the F-12 was a misfire. You don't "half-ass" machines built for long-term support. And in this climate, an entry-level LTS machine that's supposed to become popular needed and needs a different approach. Which begins with the form factor.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#525

Post by shantara »

rangestransform wrote: post #348
benoau wrote: post #101

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Wo…

Forcing developers off of Rosetta 2 is a pro-consumer move because it gives the ultimate incentive for developers to modernize. I don’t want to use Lightroom (replace with whatever app is part of your workflow) through x86 emulation, I want Apple to bitch slap Adobe into porting it to native. Microsoft will be forced to expend resources to support x86 emulation for all of eternity. Apple throwing their weight around…

Apple dropping 32-bit support resulted in me losing access to 3/4 of my Mac Steam library. Not every piece of software is built with an endless update treadmill in mind, no matter how much Apple would like to force the developers into one with their breaking changes and developer program subscription.

This would result in people losing access to a bunch of software just so Apple could shrug and shift the blame elsewhere. Because in the mind of an Apple fan, nothing is ever Apple’s fault.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#526

Post by darkteflon »

thefossguy69 wrote: post #424
commandersaki wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny it’s the opposite for me. What if I want to switch between desktops of multiple users; easy with fast user switching, not really a thing in Linux (yeah I’m sure it can be hacked up, but bleh).

The biggest papercut preventing me from being productive on macOS is it's horrible window management which cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts like one does in WMs like bspwm and others on Linux and that absolutely insane ~500 ms delay in setting the focused window when moving between virtual desktops. For some reason, Apple's ideal desktop experience is tailored around focusing on one application at a time.…

Aerospace is excellent: https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace

Can’t imagine going back.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#527

Post by criddell »

rbanffy wrote: post #504
criddell wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now they need to work on a fanless option. It would be nice to have at least one SKU be a silent machine with no moving parts.

That, in the x86 universe, has some heavy penalties in performance terms. I got myself a fanless “student” laptop (another name for “rugged”, but sells for less) and, while performance is acceptable, it ain’t fast - like a 10 year old i3.

I don’t think performance matters much to a lot of people. Look at how well the Neo is selling and it’s running what is essentially a phone SOC.

Forget about raw FLOPs and focus on performance per watt. Computers have been fast enough for most people for a decade now.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#528

Post by brachkow »

I don't understand the whole Framework thing (not 12, but in general):

1. For why would everyone want to use their laptop longer than MacBook lifespan? I'm typing this on a 5+ year old MacBook, which I expect will work for 3 more years. At this lifespan, it will be outdated by all means. I can replace it with a new one at the cost of $1-1.5k. If I had a Framework, I would gradually replace this with new parts? Well, only the mainboard takes a huge portion, or even more, of that. Screens became outdated too, by the way!

2. Repairability. Apple has bad repairability, in terms it glues the laptop from three parts. That means you can't do anything by yourself, but you can get a repair in a day or two in any point of the world. Can you fix your Framework in Tbilisi, Georgia? Last time I replaced the screen on a Mac, it cost me $300 including human work, the same as a Framework display costs.

3. MacBooks are just better in terms of performance and battery life per buck. They also tend to have the best screens, sound, and input. All of these are quite important for a laptop.

I like the Framework premise; I would like to own a Framework as a Linux machine. But we should remember that these are hobbyist laptops with a product/cost ratio, and gimmicky features.

All this discussion, amplified by voices of Apple-quarreled people like DHH, is stupid and kind of harmful – unexperienced people are ending up with expensive enthusiast devices (...or worse, with Dell XPS, you know).

P.S. Please don't bring "computer ideology" into this – there is no walled garden on MacBooks like on other Apple devices. There are no services actively sold to you. I don't know where this argument is coming from. It is just a Unix-based computer, with good hardware and a nice-looking GUI.

That said, I would definitely like to see comments of peope who actually used a MacBook and switched to Framework.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#529

Post by skydhash »

saidnooneever wrote: post #519
schaefer wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having moved from Linux ... to freeBSD default install makes my laptop last about twice or thrice as long. I’ve literally never heard this from anyone before, and I have to admit, I’m curious enough to try it for myself. The last time I tried FreeBSD was 2001.

i am not sure why btw but i read some articles on here about software not being idle on background properly a lot of times (fancy terminals etc.). for me tho 'it just happens' because im unsure how to measure it precisely.. maybe my linux had a big or wrong setup u know, but it was running very lean. Freebsd runs about as lean tho. cannot be bothered ofc to go back and measure it is some hp-elitebook withh a ryzen an…

I run openbsd on an old latitude and that tracks. I mostly have only application active at a time. The others are idling. I believe on Linux, especially with DE, there’s always some polling or scanning going on.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#530

Post by vladvasiliu »

simonsan wrote: post #423
regexorcist wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

> I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used. Until you need to repair something or change some hardware ... Which is something the author of the article totally neglects, IMHO.

> Until you need to repair something or change some hardware

How often does this happen, though? I have a 2013 MBP that still works perfectly. And I'm not even talking about the screen, which is ridiculously better than most new pc laptops. And then, of course, there's the touchpad, which, for some reason, is still unmatched in pc land.

It has 512 GB of SSD and 16 of RAM. This is basically what the new "upgraded" PCs people get at my office. In 2026, 13 years later.

Yeah, I'd use my decade-old mac any day rather than the crappy HPs at work.

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