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The real cost of owning a home

ericturner.dev

521–530 of 901 posts

Re: The real cost of owning a home

#521
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but it's also one of the downsides. "Care about the plan of their surroundings" can just as easily turn into the HOA drama that many prefer to avoid.

HOA drama sucks for sure, but just outside of my HOA controlled neighborhood, I see also the houses with junk cars in their yards and grass gone to seed. As much as I hate many stupid rules and seemingly unfair application of them, I do like that it mitigates against people that just don't give a shit about their property or the impact of their life choices on others.

I understand benefits of HOA, but I would like to live with one that allows me to just grow middle length grass or local flower and grasses.

Re: The real cost of owning a home

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you take the money you'd use for a down payment and mortgage and invest it instead (after paying rent) you end up in about the same place. That is not the right way to see it. If you have the cash to buy upfront, then yes, real estate is not that good an investment, unless you have a loaded portfolio already and want to diversify a bit, get some high inflation hedge, etc. The real value of buying a home is lever…

Love that the two most solid pro-homebuying points I've ever encountered (jedberg's about the psychological benefits, yours about leverage) immediately surface in an HN discussion. It's probably worth making a closer comparison though: * Buying a House on Loan: commit to paying off a $450k loan over 30 years at 5% interest, with an immediate $50k down payment and the home itself as collateral. So ~$2500/mo payments,…

The 'Pure Financial Investment' one is overlooking that you still need a place to live for those 30 years.

Re: The real cost of owning a home

#523
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The house gives you a place to live, so the PFI plan is either a huge miscalculation (not a great place to start when you're making a numerical argument) or intentionally disingenuous. Interest rates are closer to 6.7% which means your $2500/mo doesn't even cover your principal and interest of $2600 which is to say nothing of PMI (which will be required since you didn't put 20% down), homeowner's insurance, HOA fees,…

I understand it’s more complicated than this, but it seems really really confusing at a basic level. In one situation you are paying someone else for a place to live, and when you stop doing that after 30 years, you’re out on the street. In the other situation you are paying someone else for a place to live, and when you stop doing that after 30 years, you have a house.

Renting gives you a giant pile of additional money you can save and invest so that after 30 years you could buy a house in cash if you wanted to. The person with the house does not have this cash, they have a house instead.

After 30 years you either have a house or enough cash to buy that house. In many cases, the rate of return on the cash is sufficiently greater that it is significantly more than the value of that house.

Re: The real cost of owning a home

#524
post #467

Beyond financial costs, I was caught off guard at how much time home ownership took up. House maintenance and projects have taken up most of every single weekend of mine for the past few years. Part of it is simply that I bought a house with more space than the places I usually rented. More to clean, more to maintain, more things that can go wrong, etc. But the biggest thing is that I'm the only one in charge of main…

I don't think home ownership is an "every single weekend" thing unless you bought a fixer-upper. Honestly, it sounds like you enjoy it. If you are doing it with that frequency I think you just are "into" your house.

Most homes are fixer-uppers. They graduate to that after just a couple decades. I owned 2 homes, both in the 20-30 year range in 2 different cities.. combined (sometimes both) they needed... new roof, new hot water heater, kitchen and bathrooms updates and water mitigation, pest damage and control, leaky pipe fixing, wood deck replacing, furnace and AC replacements, basement flooding issues, foundation issues, probably more I can't remember.

Home ownership sucks and after selling my previous home I'm so glad to be renting. Just never having to deal with another contractor makes me so happy. :)

Re: The real cost of owning a home

#526
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love that the two most solid pro-homebuying points I've ever encountered (jedberg's about the psychological benefits, yours about leverage) immediately surface in an HN discussion. It's probably worth making a closer comparison though: * Buying a House on Loan: commit to paying off a $450k loan over 30 years at 5% interest, with an immediate $50k down payment and the home itself as collateral. So ~$2500/mo payments,…

The house gives you a place to live, so the PFI plan is either a huge miscalculation (not a great place to start when you're making a numerical argument) or intentionally disingenuous. Interest rates are closer to 6.7% which means your $2500/mo doesn't even cover your principal and interest of $2600 which is to say nothing of PMI (which will be required since you didn't put 20% down), homeowner's insurance, HOA fees,…

> The house gives you a place to live

A careful re-reading of my comment will reveal that I did mention rent as a factor in at least two places: one as an opportunity cost to be reckoned with for people following the PFI plan (with which my example still comes out looking good), one as a cost of living substantial enough for many working people that they do not have significant disposable income, which makes leveraging their largest living cost appealing.

> Interest rates are closer to 6.7% which means your $2500/mo doesn't even cover your principal and interest of $2600 which is to say nothing of PMI (which will be required since you didn't put 20% down), homeowner's insurance, HOA fees, or property taxes.

Using a 5% interest rate was one of several simplifying assumptions that I chose to be generous to the Buy Housing on a Loan plan.

You are correct that interest rates are presently and historically higher than that, and that mortgage insurance, homeowners insurance, property taxes, and some maintenance costs that under the BHL plan can add up to significant housing costs that aren't going to equity and therefore aren't well-leveraged. In other words, the BHL plan actually comes off worse than I made it look.

(If there's a counter side of that, it's that landlords can and will pass on those costs so they're reflected in rents... but sticklers will notice that landlords who are done with amortized costs or who financed at lower rates can choose not to do that and may have incentives to depending on the market.)

That's in absolute terms. There's a relative point too: the higher the interest rates, the more the field tilts towards the PFI. It magnifies debt/leverage, making that path more expensive, and it magnifies return from invested income, making that path more rewarding if you can swing it.

> And don't forget that other than insurance and taxes, your mortgage payment is capped for 30 years.

I did leave out the bounding effect that a mortgage can have, and that's arguably an important missing point.

Wy would someone do that? My observation is that incomes also tend to grow in rough parity to rents in many markets -- in fact, local income growth is probably the primary variable local rents are dependent on (at least in a functioning market). This means during prime earning years decades from retirement, rent changes might be an acceptable simplification. But you're probably right that the closer you get to retirement, the more important bounding costs is. And there might even be other situations where the tradeoff starts to make sense even for earners with significant disposable incomes.

Re: The real cost of owning a home

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does buying for a high price mean you will make it up? If anything it should mean the opposite.

Probably alluding to high demand rather than high prices. More demand, more likely you're win on equity

Demand can be fleeting. See Austin, TX in the early pandemic years vs now

Too much reliance on the permanent number-go-up hypothesis in home prices

Re: The real cost of owning a home

#528
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple people in this thread have mentioned the Seattle real estate market going to shit (for sellers) - is that related to tech layoffs or is something else going on? San Francisco's market is just as crazy as ever.

Seattle real estate has been trending downward for a couple years now. It isn't a single factor but the confluence of several. Initially it was only in some market segments but seems to have spread to most of them now. The inventory of housing currently on the market is anomalously high and there are relatively few buyers. I know a few people that will be lucky to sell for as much as they paid a decade ago. People wh…

Yeah, but rent doesn’t seem to go down that much though. Opportunity cost of moving is real, security deposits are sizable. I wanted to rent for as long as possible but there’s no rent cap and the apartments keep jacking up the rent.

At least now they have some sense to cap the rental raise percent but I’ve had to deal with 15-20% increases before, and not to mention the cost of parking in an apartment.

I probably made a mistake buying but I couldn’t take the bullshit from landlords and all the headaches that come with people wanting more money.

Re: The real cost of owning a home

#529
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple people in this thread have mentioned the Seattle real estate market going to shit (for sellers) - is that related to tech layoffs or is something else going on? San Francisco's market is just as crazy as ever.

Seattle real estate has been trending downward for a couple years now. It isn't a single factor but the confluence of several. Initially it was only in some market segments but seems to have spread to most of them now. The inventory of housing currently on the market is anomalously high and there are relatively few buyers. I know a few people that will be lucky to sell for as much as they paid a decade ago. People wh…

I don't think the data supports this at all.

Home prices have doubled here since 2014. We are having a modest dip right now.

Re: The real cost of owning a home

#530

Beyond financial costs, I was caught off guard at how much time home ownership took up. House maintenance and projects have taken up most of every single weekend of mine for the past few years. Part of it is simply that I bought a house with more space than the places I usually rented. More to clean, more to maintain, more things that can go wrong, etc. But the biggest thing is that I'm the only one in charge of main…

Once you get a good handyman, just need a good electrician and plumber
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