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Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

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Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#521

The answer is, clearly, Qt. (This isn't even a joke. Assuming you're not going Electron.) Part of the reason here is that it's their main business. They can't afford letting it languish and/or changing direction every 6 months.

Which one? The classic QtWidgets, which implements consistent controls but sometimes talked about as deprecated (same as WinForms), or QML, which is "modern" and "actively developed" but does not provide native look and feel and requires (or at least used to require) a lot of manual work to support proper keyboard control and accessibility?

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#522
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We might contrast that with Slack, yes? This thread comes to mind: https://www.0xsid.com/blog/wont-download-your-app With Slack that’s trivial, Telegram impossible.

Except Telegram Desktop is opensource and they also have full-functional Web version. But tdesktop is really well-made Qt piece of software, snappy, feature-rich and multi-platform.

Interesting, at first pass I’d say the source availability has little to do with the topic at hand. But on second thought it might be rather significant. No company would finance making 2x identical cross platform apps, but if you have a pool of OS folks who are free to contribute at their leisure, the calculus changes a bit.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#523

> Dead silence. One person suggested WPF. Another said WinUI 3. A third asked if they should just use Electron. The meeting went sideways and we never did answer the question. > That silence is the story. These LLMs are just awful at writing.

I was weathering the excessive and confusing analogies and then I read:

>introduced a level of cognitive complexity that makes Kierkegaard read like Hemingway.

and I fucking lost it.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#524
Programming Windows is THE authoritative source on Win32 programming: https://www.charlespetzold.com/books.html

It is a fantastic book, I learned everything I know on Win32 from it. Wrote real time scientific software in windows for ~10y! We did it all, external hardware control, custom UIs, etc. Thanks Ryan Geiss for your timing info.

Right about VC6 was the sweet spot imo, C/C++ with lightning fast UI for docs and more. Tools got out of the way. Once other languages got involved (C#?) the docs got out of control and harder to use, and the UI started to get a little overloaded.

The snappiness of those old windows systems was pretty great.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#525

Steven Sinofsky wrote this piece a couple of weeks ago about the same topic: https://x.com/stevesi/status/2036921223150440542

I've read this and the relevant chapters on his Substack and I think I get the idea that he tried to implement, but it's obvious in 2026 where his vision diverged from what people really wanted.

In the ideal world, Win32 applications would have automatically run in a sandboxed WinRT environment with granular permissions. A program thinks it's accessing a USB webcam, but it is actually accessing a Win32 shim that goes to the WinRT that first prompts the user to obtain the necessary permission and then goes to the real Win32 USB API to interface with the camera. A program is trying to access a file that hasn't been selected in the "Open file" dialog or dragged into it or passed as a command line argument? Raise a "malicious access" warning.

Overly complicated programs like antiviruses would have been able to get a "hall pass", either by registering their builds with Microsoft or asking for an administrator-level exception.

Of course, this would've been terribly hard to implement. Doing it natively would be supremely complicated, much harder than just designing a whole new userland API like WinRT. And sandboxing every application in something similar to Sandboxie would've been too taxing on the PCs from that time.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#526

What I find must puzzling is that everyone seems to just be violating basic rules that had been in place for ages. Things like: - If you can't respond to a UI event wait until you can - Menus should be tree structures - Pressing alt should underline the hotkeys you need to access anything clickable As well as just basic responsiveness or predictability. A 2000 era windows application may not have been pretty, and may…

- clicking a checkbox's label should select/deselect the checkbox

This is one that I hold my devs accountable for. No, I shouldn't have "put it in the spec", because it is the fucking spec.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#527
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that some people are just too old to get used to the swipe based ui. I mean friends of mine who just keep buying the only phones with (screen based) back and home buttons.

I'm in that group. It's not "getting used to", I feel like that gesture is less practical. It involves or using the "circle" to assist on how to use the gesture (creating a black void on the screen that you need to plan your use of the phone around) or having the swipe that 1) is not as reliable in my opinion and 2) can be triggered accidentally For me is like claiming that touch screens on cars are the future and pe…

Maybe saying "too old" is disrespectful indeed, what I meant was more that my kids grow up with swiping everywhere but we grew up with (hardware, then touchscreen) buttons and the older we get the harder it is to get used to new use paradigms.

Swipes are of course nice because they allow for the same interactions without taking any screen real-estate. And I have to say it quite consistent across the iOS apps I use.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#528
post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, a striking difference between windows and linux at this point is that the linux UI frameworks are hyper stable. If I want to make a linux desktop app, I'll choose QT or GTK. Heck, if I want to make a windows and macOS app, I'll probably choose QT or GTK. What do I chose with Windows? Who knows. It literally changes every time I look into it. That's just insane. It's gotten so bad that probably the right way to…

GTK 2, GTK 3, or GTK 4?

Various versions of GTK which introduced breaks but didn't really change the core philosophy of how you build a GTK app. IMO, this is the preferable way to evolve an ecosystem.

The problem microsoft has is instead of making "Win32, but with these extentions or these APIs removed", heck even as a separate "framework". What they did instead was "You know what's hot right now? XML. So let's make an XML based UI framework. Actually, it's javascript and css, so let's do that. Actually, people really like electron so let's do that."

That is to say, it is possible and I dare say easy to migrate an application from GTK 3 to GTK 4. It's basically impossible to migrate a WPF app to UWP. You have to rewrite the whole thing.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Package Identity isn't that different from Signed COM Registration of the ancient past. Microsoft built up a lot of dislike from it by building it "sandbox-first", but the core of it still isn't that different from COM's ancient footpaths, at least to the COM diehards that hate .NET and didn't learn near enough from .NET's battles with the same things in terms of package signing, CAS (Code Access Security), and the G…

There are still some things that are still locked in the UWP world that I wish were not. For example, Windows classic desktop apps still have no equivalent to the UWP app lifecycle. Your UWP app's processes can be suspended and resumed without you writing code to force the suspension and request when to be resumed later. Instead, you are expected to appropriately handle event notifications for suspend, resume, and th…

Those are some good points, and I especially loved that lifecycle management in the era where I used a lot of Windows 8 apps. Even on a Desktop with apps filling up my screen still seeing some of them pinned to 0% CPU most of the time (while I'm multi-tasking) in Task Manager was a delightful magic. I also agree that was one of the best parts of the UWP sandbox and one of the biggest shames when Microsoft had to figure out how to allow sandbox breaks that they couldn't find a way to make the lifecycle and other smarts parts of the sandbox more opt-out by default rather than "opt back into the full sandbox". Of course needing to opt-out by default was one of the reasons developers hated the sandbox in the first place. It's a marketing challenge no matter how you slice it.

That relates to some of my criticism that maybe UWP could have used more .NET veterans because that was one of the problems with the CAS sandbox. For the most part the CAS sandbox was "opt-in" and yeah software developers through ego, hubris, and everything else will most often declare "my app/library is a special snowflake and needs access to everything!" So even if things opt-in to additional security controls like CAS, no one tests or builds for Production in a CAS sandbox so even things that claimed to support CAS threw runtime exceptions all over the place to the point no one could trust CAS to the point were CAS died for being practically useless overhead because no one both opted in and knew how to test it.

UWP had a lot of good ideas. It's insistence that it didn't have much to learn from .NET's mistakes was not one of them.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#530
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nadella thought he could take the reins and start yelling “Cloud! Cloud! Cloud!” and that would be successful. He doesn’t have a strategy and now that’s becoming apparent.

He had a strategy and it worked very well. But every strategy must be updated. It's basic BCG matrix stuff every MBA graduate knows by heart: sooner or later your star product becomes a cash cow and then a dog. To keep your company growing, you need to identify your next potential stars among question marks, boost them with cash from the cash cows, put competent managers in charge and remove those who get in the way.…

I agree with most of that. To be charitable to Nadella, at the time he first came into the role, Microsoft needed someone yelling "Cloud! Cloud! Cloud!" because the company was certainly behind folks like AWS. But for a long time he basically stopped there. Office migrated to the cloud and they pushed out Azure. Then he went on the AI rant and they decided that putting AI into everything, whether customers wanted it or not, was "the next thing." But now we're learning that Azure is a steaming pile of crap with customers leaving, and this article about GUI strategy shows they don't have an application development strategy. Everybody is fed up with Windows. Everybody is fed up with all the numerous "CoPilots." You actually have regular people investigating moving off Windows to Linux desktops. The one thing that Microsoft did exceptionally well through the 1990s and early 2000s was keep enterprises and app developers moving in the same direction. They bent over backwards to keep old Windows 3.1 applications running even on Win32 systems. That all ensured that nobody questioned whether they would work with Microsoft. They were the default and they commanded huge market power because of it. But that's all changed, and they have nothing to replace it. With everybody starting to ask questions that Nadella doesn't have answers for, it's going in a bad direction. Nadella needs to call his EVPs to account and force them to make some hard decisions about what lives or dies and then pressure test the resulting strategy with his customers, both old customers and potential customers. Surely, cloud and AI are a part of that future strategy, but he needs to figure out the rest of it.
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