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Artemis II is not safe to fly

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521–530 of 667 posts

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#521

> This will be second flight of NASA’s SLS rocket, and the first time the 20-year-old Orion capsule flies with people on board. THEY REUSE THESE CAPSULES?!

Um, yeah. Welcome to the 21'st century, did you enjoy your long nap?

Well genius are there other 20 year old reusable space craft that haven't turned to plasma while trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere that I'm not aware of?

This seems like the only one, and according TFA, it sucks.

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#522

> This will be second flight of NASA’s SLS rocket, and the first time the 20-year-old Orion capsule flies with people on board. THEY REUSE THESE CAPSULES?!

They do not, except for some of the avionics.

That makes me feel better.

This whole project seems pretty lame.

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#523

This is a more balanced take, in my opinion: https://arstechnica.com/space/2026/01/nasa-chief-reviews-ori... Camarda is an outlier. The engineers at NASA believe it is safe. The astronauts believe it is safe. Former astronaut Danny Olivas was initially skeptical of the heat shield but came around. And note that the OP believes it is likely (maybe very likely) that the heat shield will work fine. It's hard for me to r…

It's kind of sad that we've become so risk averse. Risks should be fully disclosed but let the adventurers adventure. Would Columbus' ship ever have been allowed to sail in the modern day? Proximity wingsuit flying and free-climbing is legal and people choose to do it even though the probability of death is extremely high. Spaceflight is significantly safer and far more beneficial to humanity, yet we block it. No one…

I wish I could downvote this comment more than once. It's incredibly ghoulish to use the perfectly-sensible argument that modern culture is too risk-averse to handwave away known critical safety problems. Those two things are completely orthogonal. Yes, astronauts should be willing to accept that there are "unknown unknowns" and that they will be facing some amount of unquantifiable risk, and they should be celebrated for this. That does not, not at all, mean that when a mission comes back with heat shield failures we know should not have happened, and multiple Inspector-General reports say the ship is not safe, those concerns should be blown off with rambling about Charles Darwin. That's pure insanity.

Or to put it another way, if you were the manager on the day of the Challenger launch issuing the "go" command over the objections of the Thiokol engineers saying it was unsafe to launch in below-freezing temperatures, would you have done so with paeans to Christopher Columbus? That's the sense I get from your post.

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#524
post #321
post #292

I'm literally guest lecturing at a Harvard class tomorrow on systemic failures in decision making, using the Columbia and Challenger disasters as case studies, and changed my slides last night to include Artemis II because it could literally happen again. This broken safety culture has been around since the beginning of the Shuttle program. In 1980, Gregg Easterbrook published "Goodbye, Columbia" in The Washington Mo…

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What you have written here is pretty much exactly the contents of the article we are all commenting on.

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if it doesn't blow up due to heat shield failure, TFA (and its references) will be forgotten. The HN hivemind will remember, he's a well known user with a well known site. Let's hope there is no accident, but after the landing there will be reports anyway. We will take a look at the report of the shield and see if it shows a problem in spite it didn't explode, and compare with the prediction in the article. He…

I'm not super happy with the pattern of thinking in these numbers; arguing 1/100000 vs 1/100 for "accidents" is again a boolean thing. They probably had a very specific definition, which does make this viable, but we don't have that definition here. So the numbers are meaningless to us. And not having that definition, "accidents" is a sliding scale… e.g. I'm pretty sure astronauts injured themselves banging various b…

A high enough threshold for "accident" is a death. In the space shuttle the "accident" rate was 2/135 that is somewhat close to 1/100, but it shows that 1/100000 is too optimistic.

You can pick a more strict safety criteria, but the result would be (something)/135 >= 2/135 > 1/100 >> 1/1000000

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#526
post #25

I haven't kept up with Artemis development but I've read extensively about Challenger and Columbia. These two parts of the article stood out to me: > Moon-to-Mars Deputy Administrator Amit Kshatriya said: “it was very small localized areas. Interestingly, it would be much easier for us to analyze if we had larger chunks and it was more defined”. A Lockheed Martin representative on the same call added that "there was…

> Challenger: no gasses were supposed to make it past the o-rings no matter what, > but when it became clear that gasses were escaping and the o-rings were being > damaged, there was a push to suggest that it's an acceptable level. Interestingly, the article https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ddi792xdfNXcBwF8qpDUxmZz... > by heat shield expert and Shuttle astronaut Charles Camarda, the former Director of Engineering…

There’s a pretty good explanation here: https://exrocketman.blogspot.com/2021/12/the-seal-failure-in...

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#527
post #292

I'm literally guest lecturing at a Harvard class tomorrow on systemic failures in decision making, using the Columbia and Challenger disasters as case studies, and changed my slides last night to include Artemis II because it could literally happen again. This broken safety culture has been around since the beginning of the Shuttle program. In 1980, Gregg Easterbrook published "Goodbye, Columbia" in The Washington Mo…

But in the 80s I guess there was the pressure to one-up the Soviets, so everything had to be done yesterday, but Artemis has existed most of my adult life at various levels of maturity (Orion and its predecessors certainly did), and considering its been more time spent between that famous Kennedy speech and the actual Moon landing (where there was apparently no issue with safety culture).

Considering how much humanity has allegedly advanced since then, I don't understand what are we gaining thats caused us to have to abandon safety.

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#528
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow what a tragedy. You think maybe there's reasons for that mandate? Like maybe it saves children's lives? But sure everything would be better if any moron was allowed to decide how to keep their own kids safe.

The evidence on car seats is extremely weak and they prevent only a handful of injuries. You'd be better off redesigning roads or having more collision protection systems in cars. As self-driving cars get better to the point where they can communicate and eliminate many human errors, there's probably no need for car seats at all. In many situations they make things more dangerous, not less.

If I'm simplifying, your argument is that car seats are useless if we'd just stop crashing?

Isn't this true for every safety measure?

I don't need a guard on my table saw if I don't stick my thumb in it. Don't need a helmet if I don't fall off of my bike.

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#529
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s been plenty of coverage of this issue, and this article discusses some of the changed they made: https://www.space.com/space-exploration/artemis/the-artemis-... The only thing the author of this blog piece has to offer that’s new is his very strong personal intuition that the new design hasn’t been properly validated, without any engineering explanation about why the testing the performed won’t adequately sim…

Their testing procedures failed to predict the char loss before the flight, so they don't seem very reliable.

Yes, the original procedures didn’t find the problem, but it says they were eventually able to duplicate it in the lab and the new material has passed that test.

Re: Artemis II is not safe to fly

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your implied frustration at a relatively easy change backed by experts and mountains of data is another point in favor of > humans are so oblivious to safety

We have 4 kids. Before we had our 3rd, we needed to buy a new vehicle solely because we couldn't fit 3 car seats into the back of our old car. And when traveling with kids, carrying 4 gigantic car seats plus your other luggage is not exactly as easy as you might think! It essentially rules out solo parent travel with all 4 kids. Transferring car seats between two cars, or installing car seats in a taxi, is a serious…

I don’t think your analysis is fair, but pointing out details I disagree with misses the forest for the trees.

Look at what lengths you went to in order to justify and defend what is, by your own arguments, the demonstrably less safe option.

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