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Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

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Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#521

Post by matips »

eertami wrote: post #439
philwelch wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private car ownership is a better everyday solution for almost anyone who can afford it, which includes the vast majority of Americans. If buses tried to compete with cars, they would lose. The only remaining niche for the bus is as a public accommodation for the poor, disabled, and elderly, or occasionally in dense city centers. At least that’s what I think. But if you’re right, and there’s a version of bus transpor…

I think it isn't as absolute as you suggest, and that it depends on city planning. I own a car but in the city I live it is not a better solution for everyday trips. Walking, cycling, or bus/tram are all far more convenient - it is only when leaving the city that the car becomes better. (Even then, it depends on the destination - if it's to another city then the intercity trains are still better but for 2+ people it…

Poland? I live in Cracow and have same experience.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#522

Post by socalgal2 »

iamcalledrob wrote: post #359
Retric wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm personally able to walk a block or two further “A block or 2” each way at the start and destination is a significant difference (4-8 blocks) for most elderly people. Busses fill two different roles, as primary means of transportation and arguably more importantly as a backup means of transportation. They can serve a vital role for cities without the kind of investment it would take to make most typical HN reade…

I think this is a US-centric perspective. In the US, buses (and public transport in general), are thought of as social programmes. Anyone can use them, but they are really for people who can't drive or are too poor to own a car. The rider makeup then looks like that. The elderly and the poor, sadly. Services run at a huge loss and are dependent on massive and unpopular government subsidies. Quality of service is bad.…

Then there's the even better alternate universe. Japan, where there are ~100 train companies, almost all of them are private. There are at least 10 in Tokyo, all but one are private. They are setup so that they have a positive feedback loop. Each train company owns land at and around the trains stops. They open office buildings, apartments, groceries stores and shopping centers around those stops. The more people ride their trains, the better their other businesses do. The more compelling their other businesses are, the more people want to ride their trains to get to them. The also often run buses so you can take a bus to their stations.

These means the trains constantly improve and there's no poltitians trying to cut funding or under budgetting. The 10 companies in Tokyo I can name are JR East, Eiden, Toei, Tokyu, Seibu, Tobu, Odakyu, Keio, Keikyu, Keisei. There are actually more but they generally run 1 line each, at least at the moment.

Of those, only Toei (4 lines) are run by the government. Eiden (the Tokyo Subway) is private but gets some goverment backing. The others are all private. JR East was public in the 70s. The other 7 have always been private.

Unsurprisingly, only Toei, the government run one, is not setup with all of the positive feedback loops that keep the others going.

Note that it's similar in the Osaka/Kyoto/Kobe area. JR West and 5 other big companies, 3 subway companies, a bunch of other 1/2 line companies.

Another thing to note is, AFAICT, the population density of Kyoto is generally less than Los Angeles but they have great transporation from these private companies.

Conversely, the London Underground has had notorious underfunding issues.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#523

Post by harvey9 »

"whose ridership has bounced back more quickly after Covid than rail."

I suspect that's because rail users are more likely to have jobs which can be done remotely.

The writer might also consider that short distances between bus stops helps people who cannot easily walk longer distances.

London is trying out some services which have fewer stops, such as the Bakerloop route which follows a proposed route for a new Tube line. Perhaps this combination offer is a good choice at least for urban areas.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#524

Post by harvey9 »

Someone wrote: post #518
mjevans wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking such a fee also has transaction costs, in the time if nothing else. To liken this back to the old days - the difference in time between flashing a valid transfer slip (of paper) and having to drop change into the automated till.

Nowadays, both are “scan your card at entry and exit”, aren’t they? Elderly will have to do that, too, because a) I expect they still want to track usage, and b) allowing some passengers to hop on a bus without checking in makes it too easy for those ineligible to do that (e.g. elderly who do not live in London) to try and do that, too.

London buses are tap on entry only. For pay as you go riders the fare is not linked to distance travelled.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#525

Post by atalanta »

This so tracks with my experience of buses in NYC. They are the worst-ever option because they are so slow that they become de-facto unusable. In London, middle class people use the bus as a normal option, in NYC, only people on low incomes (like me as a student) ever use them and it's a downward spiral.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#526

Post by panick21_ »

SoftTalker wrote: post #339
angmarsbane wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in Mexico City I was blown away and inspired that their bus lanes were actually physically separate from car traffic, sometimes they were even elevated a foot or so alongside car traffic. It made the buses so much faster! I wish bus and bike lanes in the USA were equally separated from car traffic. Different color paint and intermittent bollards don't cut it. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing r…

Nice idea but it quickly runs up against budget realities.

Nonsense. The infrastructure in much of the US is already there. All you need is willingness to enforce it. All you need maybe is a bit of paint. Police could actually make some money.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#528

Post by panick21_ »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #271
paxys wrote: post #57

Something the article completely skips over is that European cities have significantly better and safer pedestrian infrastructure than their US counterparts. American streets are built to prioritize cars and cars alone. Sidewalks are often unmaintained, bumpy, and sometimes missing altogether. Crossings are often unmarked and dangerous. Stop signs and signals are routinely ignored, especially when turning. This is wh…

In many places, yes, US pedestrian infrastructure is worse. In other ways - wheelchair accessibility for example - the US is miles better than many European cities.

On public transport this does not seem to be the case at all. Low floor buses, trams and trains are much, much more common in Europe. And bike lanes and better overall pedestrian infrastructure is much better.

So I really interested how you are getting to this 'wheelchair accessibility' is better in the US. I would love to see some data, and not just 'we have X more ramps', but actual people in wheelchair going into their experience.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#529

Post by bandrami »

Retric wrote: post #386
xp84 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in SF I've seen many cycles where the SFMTA says "We'd like to make (insert any changes)..." and the 'advocates' immediately come out of the woodwork to make the argument you're making, about how walking another block or two is impossible for some constituents. Fundamentally as another commenter here said, a bus "can't wear two hats." In most large US cities, the bus, and sometimes the subway (if one exi…

The US already has a completely separate model where we send yellow busses to pick up and drop off school kids which involve buses going to a large fraction of US homes 4 times a day 180 days a year for minimal expenses that’s free at the point of use. Nothing stops you have adding express bus routes, thus allowing busses to work for yet another population. Further, bus networks are inherently cheap as long as they s…

Unfortunately DC found out something does stop you from doing that, namely activists who flood your public meeting and say that a new bus line designed to meet the needs of young urban professionals is a gentrification accelerant and must be prevented.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#530

Post by mattmaroon »

janalsncm wrote: post #118

I believe the central thesis of this article is unsupported, and other assertions are false. One, the article asserts that too many stops is the main cause of low ridership in the US. I didn’t even see a correlation (which would still not prove one causes the other) between number of stops and ridership. This is the central thesis of the article. Two, removing stops will likely not make the remaining stops nicer. Cit…

I also love the logic “others countries do x and more people ride the bus there therefore x must increase usage of buses”. Umm, maybe they just can’t afford cars as easily as we can.
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