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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#521

Post by delusional »

armchairhacker wrote: post #222
delusional wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this solve the problem at all? You're just making more problems. Now you have to deal with a black market of "unlocked" phones. You're having to deal with kids sharing unlocked phone. Would police have to wal around trying to buy unlocked phones to catch people selling them to minors? What about selling phones on the internet, would they check ID now? SOME parents give their children access to their ID. That…

It would not be solved without a culture shift. But with a culture shift, giving a kid an unlocked device would be as rare as giving them drugs. I'm sure it will occasionally happen. But kids are terrible at keeping secrets, so they will only have the unlocked device for temporary periods, and I believe infrequent use of the modern internet is much, much less damaging than the constant use we see problems from today.…

Doesn't the proposal as it's being implemented in the EU solve the problem under the exact same argumentation? Why are you dismissing a one proposal to then make your own that has exactly the same probable challenges?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#522

Post by closeparen »

enjoykaz wrote: post #36

Most of this debate makes more sense if the actual goal is liability reduction, not child safety. If it were genuinely about protecting kids, you'd regulate infinite scroll and algorithmic engagement optimization, not who can log in.

If the concern is time-wasting, even having upvotes or likes and sorting on them is plenty engaging. I spent thousands of hours as a teenager on Reddit, HN, and the old blue Facebook chronological feed.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#523

Post by EmbarrassedHelp »

knallfrosch wrote: post #417
some_random wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem with this is that the ultimate objective isn't age verification, it's complete de-anonymization. I think different groups want this for different reasons, but the simple reality is that minimizing the identify information transferred around is antithetical to their goals.

Google/Apple already know where you and your mistress live. In case you pay for any service, they've got your identity too. Ever had a single shipment confirmation to your address come to your mail? They know who you are. The hardware providers already have the information. You only need to make them reveal it to 3rd parties.

We should be banning groups from collecting age related information, and not requiring it. And we definitely should not be forcing companies to share that information with third parties.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#524

Post by kgwxd »

JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

None of this push has anything to do with protecting children. Never has, never will. Stop helping them push the narrative, it's making the problem WAY worse.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#525

Post by lencastre »

JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

you can’t blame it on parents alone, but the odds are stacked against children and their parents, there are very smart people whose income depends on making sure you never leave your black mirror

the surveillance state is possible, achievable, and a few coordination games away from deployment with backing from a majority who should know better

inertia kills, I dunno

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#526

Post by rectang »

techblueberry wrote: post #432
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

> Better the nanny state than Nanny Zuck.

why-not-both.jpg

Maximizing corporate freedom leads inevitably to corporate capture of government.

Opposing either government concentration of power alone or corporate concentration of power alone is doomed to failure. Only by opposing both is there any hope of achieving either.

Applying that principle to age-verification, which I think is inevitable: Prefer privacy-preserving decoupled age-verification services, where the service validates minimum age and presents a cryptographic token to the entity requiring age validation. Ideally, discourage entities from collecting hard identification by holding them accountable for data breaches; or since that's politically infeasible, model the service on PCI with fines for poor security.

The motivation for this regime is to prevent distribution services from holding identification data, reducing the information held by any single entity.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#527

Post by Gormo »

pokstad wrote: post #438
techblueberry wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

Social media is like tobacco. We went after tobacco for targeting kids, we should do the same to social media. Highly engineered addictive content is not unlike what was done to cigarettes.

No, it isn't. Tobacco is a physical substance that alters users' biochemistry and creates a physical dependence. Social media is information conveyed via a computing device. You can criticize social media for what it is in its own right, without having to engage in these kinds of disingenuous equivocations.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#528

Post by chris37879 »

butvacuum wrote: post #441
techblueberry wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

Screw over Meta then. Not everybody else . Meta is the bozo in a panel van with no windows. All The legit porn sites put up Big Blinking Neon Signs.

I actually run an adults only community site and you are correct, I have it in a popup that appears on every "fresh" visit to the site, it's in the giant bold print you agree to when you register, and from a technical end, I send every possible header and other signal to let filtering software know it's an adult only space. If there is a child accessing that site, they are doing so because their parent didn't even attempt to prevent them from doing so. And now I'm having to look into ID verification services that are going to quintuple to costs of hosting this free community for people in a time where community is more important than ever.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#529

Post by klsdjfdlkfjsd »

tlogan wrote: post #96
bondarchuk wrote: post #34

It's kind of weird to me how every article on this topic here has people rushing to comment within a couple minutes with some generic "yes I too support ID checks for internet use!". Has the vibe really shifted so much among tech-literate people?

The industry clearly prefers a system in which using the internet requires full identification. There are many powerful interests that support this model: - Governments benefit from easier monitoring and enforcement. - The advertising industry prefers verified identities for better targeting. - Social media companies gain more reliable data and engagement. - Online shopping companies can reduce fraud and increase tra…

When anonymity is outlawed, then only outlaws will be anonymous.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#530

Post by everdev »

JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

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