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We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

theguardian.com

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Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#521

Post by 9rx »

tensor wrote: post #412
9rx wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China also likes to claim it is a democracy because it holds elections. It is fair to say that the USA is still a democracy, but not because of elections. Elections have little to do with democracy. In fact, if the majority of the population hold the view that elections equate to democracy, you don't have a democracy.

I wouldn't say that elections have little to do with democracy, they are necessary. Though I agree that merely having an election isn't sufficient. A lot of modern dictatorships have "elections". And that's not to even begin to get in to how representation works.

> I wouldn't say that elections have little to do with democracy, they are necessary.

Elections are a useful tool, but not strictly necessary. Obviously in the small scale the people in a democracy can simply communicate directly. As things scale up you do need to, for all practical purposes, introduce a messenger[1] to carry what the people at the local level have decided upon, to compile with all the other local levels. But that does not require elections either, only trust that the message will be delivered accurately and in good faith. Elections are a really good way to select who you trust, which is why it is the norm in a representative democracy, but if in some hypothetical world where someone naturally became trusted by the people and became the messenger out of simple happenstance, that would be just as democratic. The only signifiant feature of a democracy is that the people hold control[2].

[1] Now that you no longer need to travel thousands of miles to talk to another person it is questionable how necessary that remains. However, we've never successfully developed a trust model without face-to-face interaction. As such, we willingly retain a trusted messenger to offer the face-to-face presence.

[2] Which is why the USA is oft said to not be a democracy. Few people in the USA actually get involved in democracy, which then makes it look like a small group hold control over everyone else. However, there is nothing to suggest that anyone is prevented from getting involved if they want to. Choosing to not participate is quite different from not being able to participate. And thus it is rightfully still considered a democracy.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#522

Post by rayiner »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #464
rayiner wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has a very good education system against the backdrop of challenging sociological factors and mass low-skill immigration. In the PISA exam, white American kids outperform kids in Hong Kong and Korea, as well as western european kids of non-immigrant ancestry. The American education system has major and important challenges, such as how to educate the large share of kids whose parents are economic migrants fro…

> against the backdrop of challenging sociological factors and mass low-skill immigration I'm pretty sure that poverty is the issue here. Kids who don't get enough to eat, don't get enough time (or perhaps too much time in some sad cases) with their parents, kids who don't have many opportunities tend to do worse at standardised testing. This is entirely fixable, but it's not (unfortunately) just a matter of funding…

“Poverty” might be the cause, but it’s not just poverty by itself. Every country has rich people and poor people. The U.S., however, has that normal spectrum, plus subpopulations that have unique circumstances that aren't accounted for just by income level.

Look at NAEP scores: https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/some-racial... (Table 1). Asians average 312 in 8th grade math, compared to 293 for whites and 269 for Hispanics. The gap between asians and whites is almost the same size as the gap between whites and hispanics. But the poverty metrics for asians and whites is the same: 8% below the federal poverty line. (While asians are richer than whites on average, the subset of both groups who have kids is more similar. There’s a lot of high poverty asian families in places like NYC.)

Why is there such a big gap in test scores between whites and asians when economically the two groups are similar? There must be some additional sociological factor at play behind poverty in and of itself. One might hypothesize that selective immigration plays a role. The majority of the U.S. asian population is foreign born, and is in the U.S. as a result of skilled immigration. That might have an effect on their kids test scores that’s not accounted for by household income alone. That’s the kind of additional sociological factor that countries like Japan and Korea don’t have.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#523

Post by Natfan »

Natfan wrote: post #77
ljsprague wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sound like very loyal people who I would love to have as my compatriots.

they can't be your compatriots if you imprison them, nor if they've to death due to working without any funding, also know as "pay"

s/they've to death/they've starved to death/

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#524

Post by NietzscheanNull »

mancerayder wrote: post #520
viking123 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The U.S. is under control of the Israel? We all know what you really mean. How do messages like this end up on HN? Is it the Reddit sub we have that's attracting these types of people?

Highlighting Israel's inexplicably strong influence over US foreign policy is not the dog-whistle you seem to be implying it is.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#525

Post by tencentshill »

direwolf20 wrote: post #193
Cyph0n wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add one more point that makes the US attractive to global talent: citizenship. In particular: 1) citizenship at birth and 2) viable path to citizenship via green card. Of course, both of these are in the crosshairs for “revision”.

It's much easier to get citizenship almost anywhere else in the world than to get it in the USA by green card.

We are talking about exceptionally talented individuals, who do in fact have an express path to citizenship.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#526

Post by cmxch »

rayiner wrote: post #353
autoexec wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think it'd be smart to support programs for gifted students and to screen for them. Those programs should be available to anyone in the US who qualifies regardless of where they live or what kind of money they have. Every student should be allowed and encouraged to reach their potential.

Your first point is in tension with your last point. A large fraction of the student population has a low ceiling of potential, and it’s very expensive to try and push them past that ceiling. The focus on doing so sucks up vast amounts of money and teacher attention that then gets pulled away from gifted kids. That’s why sober and clear-eyed countries like Germany conventionally sort students into tracks starting aro…

Which basically tier bins and lords over peoples entire lives based on one test score.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#527

Post by Cabal »

helterskelter wrote: post #319
Arainach wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It bears repeating: for everyone who insists that the US Executive Branch isn't compromised by our enemies, what different actions would someone who was compromised and trying to speedrun the destruction of American power, influence, and hegemony have taken?

I just said it in another post today, but I had a family member recently die from colorectal cancer when they were on a list for a new treatment at Yale, which was canceled because of the so-called Big Beautiful Bill. The doctor who was to perform it literally said "I want you to think of this procedure in terms of a cure" when they were stage 4 for like 7 years at that point. BBB slashed funding for cutting edge med…

> The doctor who was to perform it literally said "I want you to think of this procedure in terms of a cure"

I have difficulty believing a medical professional would say that.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#528

Post by ethbr1 »

mlrtime wrote: post #502
deaux wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems a lot more humane than allowing such things and then one day sending armed masked men to kidnap people from the street.

The major point being is that China doesn't have sanctuary cities. This wouldn't happen if the cities didn't safe harbor the illegals. Most replies at this point will shift the goal posts stating 'due process', again keeping on topic, not available in China either.

I'm just going appreciate the irony someone comparing Chinese civil liberties with relation to internal security forces favorably with the US.

Say what you want about ICE, but the reason they wear masks is that the US citizenry still holds power (explicitly with firearms, implicitly with voting, and legally via the judicial system).

In China, they don't have to wear masks.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#529

Post by ethbr1 »

gambiting wrote: post #468
foxglacier wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you just compare Chinese immigration enforcement favorably against "ICE stormtroopers"? Foreigners in China have to tell the police where they live, even if it's just a stay in a hotel, and they get deported very quickly for minor crimes. There isn't a problem of illegal immigration in China because the police are so strict, nobody can get away with it!

>>and they get deported very quickly for minor crimes As compared to that Irish guy who has been in the US concentration camp for 5 months now, the court ordered his release which ICE just ignored and they won't deport him either. Yeah, definitely sounds much better than what China is doing.

Godwin's law? It seems dismissive of the holocaust to call ICE facilities concentration camps.

Unless they installed gas rooms and work until death requirements recently?

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#530

Post by throw478722704 »

mancerayder wrote: post #520
viking123 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The U.S. is under control of the Israel? We all know what you really mean. How do messages like this end up on HN? Is it the Reddit sub we have that's attracting these types of people?

They claim both that Israel is just a puppet/arm/colony of the USA, and that the USA is under the control of Israel, depending on which dog whistle or virtue signalling horn they are blowing.
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