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I miss thinking hard

jernesto.com

521–530 of 764 posts

Re: I miss thinking hard

#521
post #153

One thing this discussion made me realize is that "thinking hard" might not be a single mode of thinking. In grad school, I had what I'd call the classic version. I stayed up all night mentally working on a topology question about turning a 2-torus inside out. I already knew you can't flip a torus inside out in ordinary R^3 without self-intersection. So I kept moving and stretching the torus and the surrounding space…

Yup, yup! There's so many different ways of thinking hard.

For me, thinking about an extremely technical TCS problem, for example, is my version of actively, tirelessly thinking hard. I'm logging a ton of observations, trying new ideas and hypotheses, using a mix of computer simulation and math to try and arrive at a concrete framing and answer.

On the other end of the specturm, I have philosophy. It's definitely a different type of hard. Most of my "Aha!" moments come from when I realize I've been strawmanning some argument, and not actually understanding what the person is saying. Why is the person saying this, relative to what, why is this a new observation, etc. Things are so amorphus and you can tweak the problem parameters in so many ways, and it's really tempting to either be too fluid and pretend you understand the thinker (because it's a subset of some conception you already have), or be too rigid and dissolve the thinker as a category error / meaningless. I've never felt the same feeling as I did when doing TCS research, but the feeling was definitely hard thinking nonetheless.

In terms of extremely nitty-gritty technical things, like linker bullshit and linux kernel programming, I'm much more familiar with, and these things are more about reading documentation (because the tool won't behave like you want it to) and iteration / testing (because... the tool won't behave like you want it to, so you need to make sure it behaves like you want it to!). This is also a type of thinking - I would call it hard as in the physiological response I have is similar to that of research in the very bad moments, but in terms of my lofty ideals, I don't want to call this hard.... it's very "accidental" complexity, but it's what I get paid to do :/

At work, you have a huge idea space to consider, both problem and solution framings, mixing in "bullshit" constraints like business ones. You also throw in the real-time aspect of it, so I can't just either armchair on a problem for a month (unlike Philosophy) or deep dive on a problem for a month (unlike research). I'm technically doing the third type of programming right now, but we'll see how long that lasts and I get put on a new project.

I'm not even sure if there's a clean demarcation between any of these. These are certainly better than brainrotting youtube though.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#523
post #32

This March 2025 post from Aral Balkan stuck with me: https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/114160190826192080 "Coding is like taking a lump of clay and slowly working it into the thing you want it to become. It is this process, and your intimacy with the medium and the materials you’re shaping, that teaches you about what you’re making – its qualities, tolerances, and limits – even as you make it. You know the least about wha…

I get what he's pointing at: building teaches you things the spec can't, and iteration often reveals the real problem.

That said, the framing feels a bit too poetic for engineering. Software isn't only craft, it's also operations, risk, time, budget, compliance, incident response, and maintenance by people who weren't in the room for the "lump of clay" moment. Those constraints don't make the work less human; they just mean "authentic creation" isn't the goal by itself.

For me the takeaway is: pursue excellence, but treat learning as a means to reliability and outcomes. Tools (including LLMs) are fine with guardrails, clear constraints up front and rigorous review/testing after, so we ship systems we can reason about, operate, and evolve (not just artefacts that feel handcrafted).

Re: I miss thinking hard

#524
I've found that AI still makes me think. Yes I use it as my 10x, but I still have to plan what I am going to do, call it on its bull, and keep it on track. AI just saves me from the tedium of typing (and lets be real, mistyping). I can't specialize in 13 different languages, but I can bring good architecture, and good practices to bear.

It's a different type of thinking in my opinion, more "systems" thinking.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when programming with agentic tools, you need to actively push for the idea to not regress to the most obvious/average version. The amount of effort you need to expend on pushing the idea that deviates from the 'norm' (because it's novel), is actually comparable to the effort it takes to type something out by hand. Just two completely different types of effort. There's an upside to this sort of effort too, though…

Fair enough but I am a programmer because I like programming. If I wanted to be a product manager I could have made that transition with or without LLMs.

Agreed. The higher-ups at my company are, like most places, breathlessly talking about how AI has changed the profession - how we no longer need to code, but merely describe the desired outcome. They say this as though it’s a good thing.

They’re destroying the only thing I like about my job - figuring problems out. I have a fundamental impedance mismatch with my company’s desires, because if someone hands me a weird problem, I will happily spend all day or longer on that problem. Think, hypothesize, test, iterate. When I’m done, I write it up in great detail so others can learn. Generally, this is well-received by the engineer who handed the problem to me, but I suspect it’s mostly because I solved their problem, not because they enjoyed reading the accompanying document.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#526
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the basic and enormous difference that the feedback loop is 100 or even 1000x faster. Which changes the type of game completely, although other issues will probably arise as we try this new path.

That embeds an assumption that the outsourced human workers are incapable of thought, and experience/create zero feedback loops of their own. Frustrated rants about deliverables aside, I don't think that's the case.

Not really, its just obviously true that the communication cycle with your terminal/LLM is faster than with a human over Slack/email.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#527
LLMs haven't changed how hard it is to truly invent. What LLMs do instead is painfully rub it in that most problems already have their solutions.

There's no need to create another serialization format or a JavaScript framework. You now have more time to direct your focus onto those problems that haven't yet been solved, or at least haven't been solved well.

A question that might be hard to digest: was that "thinker" really a thinker, or a well-disguised re-inventor?

Re: I miss thinking hard

#528
post #194
post #63

I don't get it. I think just as hard, I type less. I specify precisely and I review. If anything, all we've changed is working at a higher level. The product is the same. But these people just keep mixing things up like "wow I got a ferrari now, watch it fly off the road!" Yeah so you got a tools upgrade; it's faster, it's more powerful. Keep it on the road or give up driving! We went from auto completing keywords, t…

You _think_ you're thinking as hard. Reading code != writing it. Just like watching someone do a thing isn't the same as actually doing it.

Well, depending on the scope of work, they may be still thinking hard, just on a higher level. That is, thinking about the requirements, specification, and design.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's all abstraction. I didn't write my own OS. I didn't write my own compiler. I didn't write the standard library. I just use them. I could write them but I'm happy to work on the new thing that uses what's already there. This is no different than many things. I could grow a tree and cut it into wood but I don't. I could buy wood and nails and brackets and make furniture but I don't. I instead just fill my ho…

There are two stages to becoming a decent programmer: first you learn to use abstraction, then you learn when not to use abstraction. Trying to find the right level is the art. Once you learn the tools of the trade and can do abstraction, it's natural to want to abstract everything. Most programmers go through such a phase. But sometimes things really are distinct and trying to find an abstraction that does both will…

In higher end work they do have specialized lighting, branch power, and feeder electricians. And among feeder even special ones for medium voltage etc
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