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I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#521

Post by jdujfkhllhl »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #360
warkdarrior wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it was going to be? Because the tin didn't say "repairable and upgradable and poor battery life and shaky case". It only mentioned the benefits but not the drawbacks.

To be fair, I've had plenty a non-repairable laptop with poor battery life and shaky case. I don't know their excuee.

If all the laptop components break at the same time, there's no need for repairability. Then it’s just a somewhat disposable computer by design. For a car analogy, this is how many americans could afford their first car.

The truly bad designs are when one broken component is preventing repairability. Hello apple!

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#522

Post by jdujfkhllhl »

Levitating wrote: post #339
anamexis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're not allowed to criticize pricing unless you're forced to buy it?

I am not prohibiting anyone from doing anything. I am just saying I don't think people should criticize pricing as if they're forced to buy it.

Do you have any evidence that anyone, ever, has been forced to buy a (framework) laptop?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#523

Post by datatrashfire »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

i think the author is pretty clearly making the point the trade off is not worth it to him. which is not all that suprising given that seems to match the preferences of most people given the popularity of apple hardware which has for a very long time been on the far end of the irreparable, but smaller, quieter, etc, spectrum.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#524

Post by molarmanful »

ahachete wrote: post #251

I have two Framework 13 DIY, top of the line (Ryzen AI 9 HX 370, 96 GB of RAM, 2TB WD BLACK SN850X). Well, TBH just one, the other one was stolen with less than one month, but that's a different story. Can't be happier with this choice. First of all, now I feel confident I can easily tinker with my laptop, open it and replace any components. No, I'm not repeating their Marketing, I'm truly confident now. Some months…

I've been a very happy FW16 user, so much so that I got my partner an FW13 to replace her very old and very bulky gaming laptop. Similar specs to yours + AMD dGPU module. Recently cleaned the innards and upgraded my mainboard to the HX 370 in ~20min with zero issues. Compared to what I've been reading on various forums/threads, my experience as a whole has been virtually free of problems! FW + NixOS is a potent combo that squarely satisfies the kind of configurability/overall experience I need/want in the tech I use. (And perhaps more importantly, it handily assuages my paranoid mind.)

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#525

Post by pdimitar »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #368
cycomanic wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability. But is it really more sustainable to have a poor quality but easily repairable/swappable laptop where you had to exchange multiple parts over e.g. 10 years, compared to a high quality laptop that lasted the full 10 years and didn't need any repairs? And that is not unusual, my 10 year…

If you have this mythical laptop that lasts 10 years, let me know. Meanwhile, I don't think the GT 1050m from my 2015 laptop would truly have been that competitive today. And it sure did need several repairs to last the 4-ish years it did get. I'll admit my bias as a gamer and game dev, though. My industry more or less requires a stronger machine by default and the line shifts quickly. Even my decent GTX 3080m is sta…

I am puzzled by the "GT 1050M is not competitive today"? What does that even mean?

You are moving goal posts. Your parent clearly specified long-term stability and lack of repairs. Granted not all laptops are that durable. But many are. I have a pile of old laptops, one I clearly remember using it as a daily driver for development in the interval of 12 to 10 years ago. Just ran it yesterday, wanted to see if I can put it in a homemade computing cluster. Worked fine after being battered with Fold@Home for 12 hours.

You did admit your bias, for which I am grateful. But admitting it or not, let's recognize it's still making people prone to judging from a filter bubble perspective. Barely any dev cares about GPU performance being competitive today. I am a fairly average dev and I and my kind care that the laptop can drive one 4K screen at 60Hz and that's it.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#526

Post by kuschku »

piskov wrote: post #57
aunty_helen wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what’s lost here is when the framework project was launched, all the companies were moving to SoC designs and reliability was unknown. Replacing a stick of ram is still much cheaper than buying a whole new MacBook, but these systems seem to be reliable enough that ram failures aren’t front of mind. Same for SSDs.

> replacing a stick of ram How often does your RAM fail you?

Currently? Every 1.5 years, luckily still within warranty the last few times. Different systems, different manufacturers, different generations.

But that's an edge case, and I still don't really understand why it's happening.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#527

Post by pdimitar »

zuntaruk wrote: post #465
cycomanic wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability. But is it really more sustainable to have a poor quality but easily repairable/swappable laptop where you had to exchange multiple parts over e.g. 10 years, compared to a high quality laptop that lasted the full 10 years and didn't need any repairs? And that is not unusual, my 10 year…

What's the measure we're using to define quality?

I would say durability. HN is obsessed by e-waste so pointing out that something can last 7+ years wins some over. Not being sarcastic, nor am I mocking anyone, I am stating an observation.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#528

Post by johnnyanmac »

pdimitar wrote: post #525
johnnyanmac wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have this mythical laptop that lasts 10 years, let me know. Meanwhile, I don't think the GT 1050m from my 2015 laptop would truly have been that competitive today. And it sure did need several repairs to last the 4-ish years it did get. I'll admit my bias as a gamer and game dev, though. My industry more or less requires a stronger machine by default and the line shifts quickly. Even my decent GTX 3080m is sta…

I am puzzled by the "GT 1050M is not competitive today"? What does that even mean? You are moving goal posts. Your parent clearly specified long-term stability and lack of repairs. Granted not all laptops are that durable. But many are. I have a pile of old laptops, one I clearly remember using it as a daily driver for development in the interval of 12 to 10 years ago. Just ran it yesterday, wanted to see if I can pu…

Sure , "sustain" is subjective. If you're sticking to Arch Linux, programming VIM, and browsing docs for 20 years, you'd get more value out of one good base over any potential upgrades. But that doesn't seem to be the world we live in, hardware or software wise. We don't really build laptops like we would fridges, and the former has a lot more moving parts regardless.

>But admitting it or not, let's recognize it's still making people prone to judging from a filter bubble perspective.

Sure. My other opinion to emphasize is that I don't think Framework is trying to aim for the average user. Nor even average dev. If you're questioning why you not buy some $600-1000 range laptop,or why you need a 5090 at all, you 99% don't really need the flexibility of a modular laptop.

On top of that, the average dev could (or at least, used to until recently) also afford a brand new replacement laptop, so they probably aren't as cost conscious nor as specs demanding as a game Dev like me living in a boom bust cycle (and it's pretty bust right). I'm around that time considering an upgrade and I'd much rather throw down $600 to just slap in a new GPU like I would in a desktop, instead of another $2000+.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#529

Post by makeitdouble »

kassner wrote: post #485
makeitdouble wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside opinions about the product, the first 16" mac is around 2849 euros in the EU https://www.apple.com/be-fr/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-pouc...

The MacBook Air 15” costs €1399, doesn’t sound too economical to pay double the price for the extra 0.9”

My point was more that throwing around the lowest price point (in a different currency...) of a differently positionned product line helps nothing.

Comparing Macs to Framework laptops is also an exercise in frustration in that nobody's seriously looking at the two for the exact same task. The price point discussion was already a distraction IMHO.

Can you imagine someone thinking "I'm gonna buy an officially supported fully user repairable Linux dev machine, should I get a MacBook Air 15?" or "I own everything in the Apple ecosystem and just need 'a laptop', how does that 100% incompatible machine fit my needs ?"

How much of an overlap is there really ? I totally understand the article author getting mad when he was looking for a completely different thing in the first place.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#530

Post by moomin »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #182
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy t…

It’s frustrating. A small manufacturer can’t hope to beat out a large one on price. And that’s before we consider that the maintainability that Framework offers means you can’t cut the corners the regular manufacturers do. But even I find things like the weight an unappealing proposition even though I have no idea how you’d build a laptop like Framework’s that appreciably lighter.
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