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Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

andyljones.com

521–530 of 663 posts

Re: Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

#521

How about we stop trying the analogy clothing on and just tell it like it is? AI is unlike any other technology to date. Just like predicting the weather, we don't know what it will be like in 20 months. Everything is a guesstimate.

I think that you're on to something here, though I agree more with your first sentence than the second.

AI is not identical to, as the article compares, mechanical power.

But your weather-forecasting comment suggests a possible similarity (though not the one you go to): for all the millions-fold increase in compute power, and the increased density and specificity of meterological measurements, our accurate weather-forecasting window has only extended by a factor or so of two (roughly five days to ten). That is, there are applications for which vastly more information-processing capacity provides fairly modest returns.

And there are also those in which it's transformative. I'd put reusable rockets in that category, where we can now put sufficiently-reliable compute (and a whole bunch of rocket-related hardware) on a boost-phase rocket such that it can successfully soft-land.

For some years I've been thinking of the notion of technology not as some general principle ("efficiency" is the classic economics formulation), but as a set of specific mechanisms each of which has specific capabilities and limitations.[1] I've held pretty constant with nine of these:

1. Fuels. Applying more (or more useful) energy to a process.

2. Energy transmission and transformation.

3. Materials. Specific properties, abundance, costs, effects, limitations.

4. Process knowledge --- how to do things. What's generally described as "technical knowledge", here considered as a specific mechanism of technology.

5. Structural or causal knowledge --- why things work. What's generally described as "scientific knowledge".

6. Networks. Interactions between nodes via links, physical or virtual, over which matter, energy, information, or some mix flow. Transport, comms, power, information.

7. Systems. Constructs including sensing, processing, action, and feedback. Ranging from conceptual to mechanical to human and social.

8. Information. Sensing, perceiving, processing, storing, retrieving, and transmitting. Ranging from our natural senses to augmented ones, from symbolic systems (language, maths) to algorithms.

9. Hygiene. Sinks and unintended consequences, affecting the function and vitality of systems, and their mitigations or limits.

AI / AGI falls into the 8th category: information, specifically information processing. And as such, getting back to my original point, we can compare it with other information-related technological innovations: speech, writing, maths, boolean logic, switches (valves, transistors, etc.), information storage/retrieval, etc. And, yes, human thought processes. We do have some priors we can look at here, and they might help guide us in what a true AGI might be able to accomplish, and what its limitations may be.

It's often noted (including in this thread) that AGI would not presently be able to persist without copious human assistance, in that it's predicated on a vast technological infrastructure only a small portion of which it would be capable of substituting for. It's quite likely that AGI would be both competitive with and complementary to much human activity. In the horse analogy, it's worth noting that the first stage of mechanised transport development, with steam shipping and rail technology, horses were strongly complementary in that they fulfilled the last-mile delivery role which steamships and locomotives couldn't furnish. Horse drayage populations actually boomed during this period. It was development of ICE-powered lorries which finally out-competed the horse-drawn cart for intra-urban delivery. AGI-as-augmenting-humans is an already highly-utilised model, and will likely persist for some time. Experiments in AGI replacing humans will no doubt occur, some successful, others not. I'd suggest that my 9th category, hygiene, and specifically failure modes of AGI, will likely prove highly interesting.

Mechanised transport also relies heavily on fuels and/or energy storage. The past 200 or so years were predicated on nonrenewable fossil fuels, first coal then oil, and there were several points in that timeline where continued availability of cheap fuels was seriously in question. We're now reaching the point where even given abundant supply, the relatively-clean byproducts of use are proving, at scales of current use, incompatible with climatic stability, possibly extending to incompatible with advanced technological civilisation or even advanced life on Earth (again, category 9).

AGI relies on IC chip manufacture (the province of vanishingly few companies), on copious amounts of electricity, scarce physical resources, and various legal regimes concerning use of intellectual works, property, profit, and more (categories 1, 2, 3, and 7, at a minimum). Whether or not a world with pervasive AGI proves to be a stable or unstable point is another open question.

________________________________

Notes:

1. A sampling of prior HN discussions may be found with this search: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...>.

Re: Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

#522
post #106

Regarding horses vs. engines, what changed the game was not engine efficiency, but the widespread availability of fuel (gas stations) and the broad diffusion of reliable, cheap cars. Analogies can be made to technologies like cell phones, MP3 players, or electric cars: beyond just the quality of the core technology, what matters is a) the existence of supporting infrastructure and b) a watershed level of "good/cheap…

And roads, and other auto-friendly (or auto-dependent) infrastructure and urban / national land-use.

Cars went from a luxury to a necessity, though largely not until after WWII in the US, and somewhat later in other parts of the world.

There remain areas where a car is not required, or even a burden. NYC, and a few major metropolitan regions, as well as poorer parts of the world (though motorcycles and mopeds are often prevalent there).

Re: Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

#524

Horses pull carts. Chessbots play chess. Humans do lots of things. Equivalence in one thing is not equivalence in the vast collection of things we do.

AI seems capable of doing lots of things, particularly in comparison to domain-specific programming or even domain-specific AI. Your critique doesn't seem so powerful as you might suppose.

Re: Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

#525
post #219
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, tbf the author was hired to answer newbie questions. Perhaps the position is that of an evangelist, not a scientist.

I couldn’t have made a worse take if I tried

I understand that computer scientists are often wrong about things outside their expertise. Other scientists too.

Re: Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason to reduce headcount is to remove people who already weren’t providing much value. There were many secretaries up until the late 20th century that took dictation, either writing notes of what they were told or from a recording, then they typed it out and distributed memos. At first, there were many people typing, then later mimeograph machines took away some of those jobs, then copying machines made…

The crucial observation is the fact that automation has historically been a net creator of jobs, not destroyer.

That observation is only useful if you can point at a capability that humans have that we haven't automated.

Hunter-Gatherers were replaced by the technology of Agriculture. Humans still are needed to provide the power to plow the earth and reap the crops.

Human power was replaced by work animals pulling plows, but you only humans can make decisions about when to harvest.

Jump forward a good long time,

Computers can run algorithms to indicate when best to harvest. Humans are still uniquely flexible and creative in their ability to deal with unanticipated issues.

AI is intended to make "flexible and creative" no longer a bastion of human uniquness. What's left? The only obvious one I can think of is accountability: as long as computers aren't seen as people, you need someone to be responsible for the fully automated farm.

Re: Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

#527
post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love AI, but I'm exasperated by the extent to which my fiancee uses Claude instead of search, and for everything ...

Why? Google search kinda sucks. And I find it helpful to provide context that I can't otherwise provide to any standard search engine.

Google search sucks now because it's been targeted by the spammers and content farms. Before that happened it was pretty good. LLMs will eventually be poisoned the same way, whether by humans or other LLMs.

Re: Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

#528
You know, this whole conversation reminds me of that old critique on Communism; Once the government becomes so large and encompassing, it reaches a point where it no longer needs to the people to exist, thus, people are culled by the millions, as they are simply no longer needed.

Re: Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

#529
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Margins require a competitive edge. If productivity gains are spread throughout a competitive industry, margins will not get bigger; prices will go down.

That feels optimistic. This kind of naive free market ideology seems to rarely manifest in lower prices.

That's because free markets don't always result in competitive industries.

Re: Horses: AI progress is steady. Human equivalence is sudden

#530
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could argue that the quality of life per horse went up, even if the total number of horses went down. Lots more horses now get raised in farms and are trained to participate in events like dressage and other equestrian sports.

'now instead of being work animals a few of you will be kept like pets by the tech bros'

"But only if you're a superior breed..."

Epstein was ahead of his times...

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