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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#521

Post by torginus »

fwipsy wrote: post #252
wavemode wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not sustainable to sell a product that most people only buy because they were trying to buy something else (or because they're forced to for societal reasons). That sort of approach is exactly why "Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost" (as the title states)! People are wising up to the truth, and now it's harming the credibility of the system as a whole.

Colleges used to be much more affordable even though they covered liberal arts and engineering together. Are all colleges unaffordable? Do all colleges require engineering students to take liberal arts? Maybe this isn't universal, maybe it's just that prestigious colleges all have strong liberal arts programs, either out of tradition or because it's required for being seen as prestigious. Liberal arts courses arguabl…

Liberal arts is a huge grab bag of courses with varying rigor, quality, appeal and difficulty.

One of the best courses I had in college was a metalworking course during which I learned to weld.

But like many (engineering) students, for most of the liberal arts credit, I went with stuff where I could get the best possible grade with the least possible work.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#522

Post by Qem »

rcarr wrote: post #421
monero-xmr wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but if the US truly has the best military (and it does 100x) then when push comes to shove, the US will destroy anyone who tries to undermine it. Very dangerous game to oppose it. Being able to construct things quickly is important, but if the US can militarily seize nearly every country on earth in days, the power is not necessarily where the kit is located

Replace the word US in this paragraph with Nazi Germany and the issue with this statement becomes apparent. If the only way you can maintain power is via physical force over others then you're a bully and it won't be long until others unite against you. The US may have the best military in the world but it does not have the ability to take on the entire globe. It's previous status actually came from the fact people u…

> Yesterday, I felt sick watching a video on YouTube about how an estimated 1500 people are living in the flood tunnels of Las Vegas and routinely die whenever there is heavy rain.

I didn't know about this. Can you share a link?

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#523

Post by lapcat »

stack_framer wrote: post #363
lapcat wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing this story. You seriously dropped out because you didn't like one class? That doesn't seem to show much fortitude. Which university, which year was this, what was your major, and what happened with your education and/or career after you dropped out? And what precisely do you mean by "castigated," in your specific case?

> You seriously dropped out because you didn't like one class? No. The university added other "studies" courses to my requirements that contributed to my decision. After taking gender studies, I knew I could not tolerate the other "studies" courses the university was suddenly demanding—which were not required when I first started. > Which university The University of Utah > which year was this 2014 > what was your ma…

https://www-old.cs.utah.edu/docs/Undergraduate/UGHandbook_20...

According to the University of Utah Computer Science Undergraduate Student Handbook 2014-2015, "Students must take two intellectual explorations courses in each: fine arts (FF), humanities (HF), and social sciences (BF). Two of these six courses must be upper division ­ – one should meet the diversity (DV) requirement and one should meet the international (IR) requirement" and "The diversity (DV) requirement can be satisfied by taking a course from an approved list as part of the intellectual explorations courses." So, there was only one required diversity course, from a list of courses, meaning that gender studies was not specifically mandated. If you took gender studies to satisfy the diversity requirement, it was because you chose gender studies, which seems like an odd choice, given your beliefs. In any case, you would not have to take multiple diversity courses.

> I still have 8 classes left. Nothing happened to my career.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. As a result of dropping out, do you not have a career in computing? Alternatively, did dropping out without getting a computer science degree not harm your career at all, and if it didn't, then why were you spending time and money ("I refused to spend another dollar of my hard-earned money") to get a degree?

In a later comment, you say:

> this was the beginning of why I personally no longer thought a college degree was worth the cost.

> sitting through courses where I was not allowed to openly debate the ideas being presented to me.

I'm confused here. For you, is the monetary value of a college degree to openly debate ideas in class? And if so, why did you major in computer science, as opposed to philosophy, for example, which is known for open debate of ideas in class, unlike computer science?

> My instructor and some students went scorched earth on me

Scorched earth is a metaphor. It's not in this case an accurate and informative description of reality. I suspect you just mean that you got criticized, which is exactly what you asked for: an open debate of ideas. The use of hyperbolic phrases like "castigated" and "scorched earth" does not make your comments plausible.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#524

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #161
collinmcnulty wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This view seems to be common, but I think it misses what incredible alchemy comes from making people who come in for “job training” (like I did) spend 4 years in close proximity with research, academic freedom, liberal arts, and at least an attempt at some kind of intellectual idealism separate from economic incentive. It’s peanut butter and chocolate that has served democracy and its people well by having a middle c…

That's historical revisionism. The percentage of American adults over age 25 who have a college degree was only 20% as recently as 1990. When America was truly at the top of the world in the 1950s and 1960s, it was under 10%. A high fraction of college attendance is better correlated with the 21st century decline in America's situation.

[deleted]

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#525

Post by spicyusername »

rayiner wrote: post #161
collinmcnulty wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This view seems to be common, but I think it misses what incredible alchemy comes from making people who come in for “job training” (like I did) spend 4 years in close proximity with research, academic freedom, liberal arts, and at least an attempt at some kind of intellectual idealism separate from economic incentive. It’s peanut butter and chocolate that has served democracy and its people well by having a middle c…

That's historical revisionism. The percentage of American adults over age 25 who have a college degree was only 20% as recently as 1990. When America was truly at the top of the world in the 1950s and 1960s, it was under 10%. A high fraction of college attendance is better correlated with the 21st century decline in America's situation.

Sorry to say that I don't think the post-WWII boom had anything to do with sound economic policies, but rather the chance fact that the United States was the only industrialized nation unravaged by war and capable of capturing a major share of global economic spending because of that.

So... I wouldn't look too nostalgically backwards for policy guidance when we have an entirely different set of geopolitical circumstances.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#526

Post by chongli »

dan-robertson wrote: post #518

Maybe one thing to keep in mind is that there are a big range of colleges in the US. If you go to a poorly regarded party school then probably you have a good time and maybe even get some useful connections out of it, but the main advantage is presumably being able to check the ‘college degree’ box when applying to relatively ordinary jobs. If you go to Harvard then (a) you pay much less if you have limited means and…

The signalling hypothesis (of Bryan Caplan [1]) lurks within your two premises. Neither the poorly regarded party school nor Harvard add much in the way of human capital. What both do is act as honest signals of intelligence, ability, conscientiousness, and resourcefulness (including family resources). These are extremely valuable indicators for prospective employers who are otherwise prohibited (by law) from asking or testing these directly and punished (through wasted wages, training costs, benefits) for making a mistake.

In the past it was much cheaper to train people on the job because wages and benefits were much lower. Higher education has driven up wages and benefit costs (through inflation and cost disease), thus cementing higher education’s position as a gatekeeper.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_Against_Education?wpr...

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#527

Post by swydydct »

anonzzzies wrote: post #204

I went to uni to learn to learn. It helped that it was free, but it was a rigorous education with formal proofs (starting in week 1), proper research, scientific writing etc. Very few people will learn that outside universities, and, while not strictly needed for most jobs, it really helps as a tool to shut 'talkers' up to this day. Socially it was good as well; got my first and second project for my tiny company I s…

Yeah I never get what these other comments are talking about with college not being useful. I basically learned my profession in college and now hire people who have done the same thing.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#528

Post by tim333 »

torginus wrote: post #503
tim333 wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"strong economic and strategic motive" behind Afghanistan? They did it to get Bin Laden basically. America are like a slightly corrupt and violent world police.

So they invaded Afghanistan to grab a Saudi national hanging out in Pakistan?

Mostly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#US_invasion_and_Is...

Apparently the invasion was Oct 2001 and Bin Laden hiked over into Pakistan in Dec 2001

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#529

Post by collinmcnulty »

qcnguy wrote: post #426
collinmcnulty wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This view seems to be common, but I think it misses what incredible alchemy comes from making people who come in for “job training” (like I did) spend 4 years in close proximity with research, academic freedom, liberal arts, and at least an attempt at some kind of intellectual idealism separate from economic incentive. It’s peanut butter and chocolate that has served democracy and its people well by having a middle c…

That's a very ideological take, especially this part: > It’s peanut butter and chocolate that has served democracy and its people well Most people are now saying in polls it didn't serve them well! You're disagreeing with the majority of people's lived experiences. And of those who say it was worth it, a lot will be people in denial. Nobody wants to rack up huge debts and then admit it was a mistake. If you were to s…

Friend, go to a community theatre production and you will find people engaged in something for which there is no economic incentive. Or learning a new language after retirement. Or playing church softball. There’s more to life than money, and there’s good in the world dollars can’t capture.
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