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Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

theguardian.com

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Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#521

Post by Cordiali »

TylerLives wrote: post #513
undeveloper wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Therapy is effective, but not always. sometimes, especially with children, there is no root cause in life to the depression beyond "genetics". Additional, therapy may simply be useless and unproductive without medication being used concurrently. There's also simply death. I didn't feel like mentioning it, but I think its worth pointing out that without treatment, death is a very real possibility.

>sometimes, especially with children, there is no root cause in life to the depression beyond "genetics". I find this hard to believe. People in the past weren't depressed nearly as much, so whatever is causing it has to be environmental.

People in the past couldn't get a diagnosis, so they had to settle for cirrhosis.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#522

Post by pizzafeelsright »

robertakarobin wrote: post #389
pizzafeelsright wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Depression is caused by laziness and anxiety by hopelessness. Others have responded to the depression/laziness part -- I was wondering if you could clarify what you mean by anxiety being caused by hopelessness? To my way of thinking hopelessness and depression have a lot of overlap, but anxiety not so much... It's more like a feeling of dread.

Anxiety is fear based often if the unknown.

Fear of the dentist is common but understanding that the inconvenience is required for the desired outcome, the reason for the suffering, there is a hope to look to allowing the suffering to have meaning.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#523

Post by pqtyw »

undeveloper wrote: post #475
EtienneDeLyon wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A seven-year old child is being given a brain-altering drug? I am very happy such drugs did not exist when I was seven years old.

the alternative is depression. brain altering drugs seem preferrable

For a 7 year old? It's about as absurd/dystopian as somebody claiming their 3 year old was diagnosed with ADHD.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#524

Post by pqtyw »

wkat4242 wrote: post #484
undeveloper wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the alternative is depression. brain altering drugs seem preferrable

Exactly. And it's a combination usually. It's really hard to do constructive therapy when you are depressed. Stabilise with the meds and then tackle the root causes with therapy. But some people just are very prone to depression and need the extra help. You wouldn't say "don't give that kid ibuprofen, let them just deal with the pain"? And SSRIs are not very strong. They do have some nasty side effects especially sex…

You're talking about an adult, though, not a seven-year old child..

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#525

Post by pqtyw »

TylerLives wrote: post #513
undeveloper wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Therapy is effective, but not always. sometimes, especially with children, there is no root cause in life to the depression beyond "genetics". Additional, therapy may simply be useless and unproductive without medication being used concurrently. There's also simply death. I didn't feel like mentioning it, but I think its worth pointing out that without treatment, death is a very real possibility.

>sometimes, especially with children, there is no root cause in life to the depression beyond "genetics". I find this hard to believe. People in the past weren't depressed nearly as much, so whatever is causing it has to be environmental.

Do we know that, though? Historically the lives of most people were bleak and miserable. You don't really have much time to feel depressed when you have to work for 14 hours in a factory 6 days a week or lose your home and eventually die in the streets due to malnutrition and disease. People who couldn't take care of themselves and didn't have a support network just didn't live that long and/or were entirely erased from history...

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#526

Post by johnisgood »

wkat4242 wrote: post #484
undeveloper wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the alternative is depression. brain altering drugs seem preferrable

Exactly. And it's a combination usually. It's really hard to do constructive therapy when you are depressed. Stabilise with the meds and then tackle the root causes with therapy. But some people just are very prone to depression and need the extra help. You wouldn't say "don't give that kid ibuprofen, let them just deal with the pain"? And SSRIs are not very strong. They do have some nasty side effects especially sex…

> You wouldn't say "don't give that kid ibuprofen, let them just deal with the pain"?

Of course you would say that after the Nth time. You are supposed to find out what causes the pain, not mask it.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#527

Post by marky1991 »

johnisgood wrote: post #526
wkat4242 wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And it's a combination usually. It's really hard to do constructive therapy when you are depressed. Stabilise with the meds and then tackle the root causes with therapy. But some people just are very prone to depression and need the extra help. You wouldn't say "don't give that kid ibuprofen, let them just deal with the pain"? And SSRIs are not very strong. They do have some nasty side effects especially sex…

> You wouldn't say "don't give that kid ibuprofen, let them just deal with the pain"? Of course you would say that after the Nth time. You are supposed to find out what causes the pain, not mask it.

I've had recurring headaches my entire life. Have been to many neurologists, none have any idea what causes them, they just give me different pills to prevent them instead. This isn't unusual for headaches, quite often the cause is basically unknown. (If you ask people they'll give you a series of common things, eg water consumption, eating enough, etc, but it's just all unprovable folk medicine) Expecting everyone to "find the cause" is unreasonable.

If you have a headache, it's totally fine to take a painkiller. (If it happens on a regular basis, eg at least once a week, it can be a good idea to get those different pills from a neurologist, because the two main painkillers have bad side effects in the long run, but those different pills are just "masking" it in a different way)

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#528

Post by johnisgood »

marky1991 wrote: post #527
johnisgood wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wouldn't say "don't give that kid ibuprofen, let them just deal with the pain"? Of course you would say that after the Nth time. You are supposed to find out what causes the pain, not mask it.

I've had recurring headaches my entire life. Have been to many neurologists, none have any idea what causes them, they just give me different pills to prevent them instead. This isn't unusual for headaches, quite often the cause is basically unknown. (If you ask people they'll give you a series of common things, eg water consumption, eating enough, etc, but it's just all unprovable folk medicine) Expecting everyone t…

I am not trying to say that you are never supposed to take medications long-term. I take medications, too. Unfortunately the causes are known (or rather, there is a diagnosis), but there is no treatment or cure.

What I am trying to say is that after the Nth time you would take the kid to the doctor to find out what causes the pain, instead of just giving them painkillers. It could easily be something treatable, or rather, curable.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#529

Post by johnisgood »

hajile wrote: post #502
crowbahr wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the problem's not a "neurochemistry issue" (that theory's been debunked and the "chemicals" in play have never been known), and the solution is "no better than placebo." It most certainly has not been debunked and mind altering chemicals most certainly do work. SSRIs have _questionable_ efficacy but that's not the same as proven to have none, which is an exceptionally high bar. This is close minded dogma no…

If you don't have a serious model for what you are treating, then you are experimenting on your patients and hoping it works for unknown reasons. Not too different from folk remedies. Even worse, patients are essentially never informed that the doctor is throwing things at the wall hoping something sticks.

You just described what psychiatrists do.

(I have many first-hand and second-hand experiences.)

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#530

Post by johnisgood »

ksenzee wrote: post #204
hintklb wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue I see is that the anxiety pill is a way to treat the symptoms, not the cause. Do you think that there is a way to treat the underlying cause and not the symptoms?

How do you know an anxiety pill is treating symptoms only? What if the cause is physiological, and the pill treats that? It is entirely possible to sit in your therapist's office and mutually shrug because neither of you can find an underlying reason for your anxiety. Sometimes anxiety just is.

I had panic attacks every morning before school. God, I hated school. Mainly because of the other kids, and when I was older, because of both the kids and the teachers. I remember telling my IT teacher I am using Linux (I forgot why I told her) and she was very condescending. I have a lot of other stories but yeah, school was an anxiety-inducing nightmare.
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