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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#521

Post by raffraffraff »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #7
contravariant wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Which is a bit complicated here, as the EU has no real constitution and this 'law' (really a regulation) is a blatant violation of the constitutions of countries that did choose to establish secrecy of correspondence.

isn't constitution easily changed by parlament?

Ireland's Supreme Court decided in 1987 to make a referendum mandatory before they would ratify EU treaty amendments. Not that it mattered, because they got a "no" vote but their puppet masters wanted a "yes", so they just reran the referendum the following year...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_t...

Only 59% turn out, and the vote won 67%. So in reality less than 40% of the population were for it.

I have vague memories of people saying that the treaty was indecipherable. The EU were like, "Here, vote yes for this big bag of 'misc', or else"

This wasn't the first time they reran a referendum for an EU treaty. They did it back in 2003!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-sixth_Amendment_of_th...

If the UK wanted to avoid BREXIT all they had to do was look a few miles to the west for the knack.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#522

Post by snapcaster »

gambiting wrote: post #363
nickslaughter02 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you will gradually lose control of your government That happened the moment European countries surrendered their sovereignty to EU.

Which of course never happened, as each member country retains full sovereignty in every possible way you can think of, which is actually fully enshrined in the way EU works.

Except for regulations on commerce, control of their currency and a removal of democratic elections for leaders right?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#523

Post by cirelli94 »

ohman876 wrote: post #510
txrx0000 wrote: post #287

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

> If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government A little bit off-topic but so called president of the EU is not elected, nor are the figures in so called EU commission :)

That's not true. They are elected but not directly by the population but by the representative of each state.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#524

Post by atoav »

palata wrote: post #303
atoav wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you can read all communications But you can't. You can legally require messages to implement client side scanning before the encryption happens or add some backdoor keys and hope they don't leak. Since cryptography is known anybody can always just create messengers that just don't implement that requirement. If you sexually abuse children the hurdle to illegally running a non-backdoored messenger seems pretty lo…

> But you can't. Be careful what you wish for. We could enforce client-side scanning on the OS. Everything that appears on the screen is scanned and reported. > If you sexually abuse children the hurdle to illegally running a non-backdoored messenger seems pretty low to me. How do you contact children on mainstream messengers if you can't use mainstream messengers? Not to mention that most people consuming CSAM are n…

> Be careful what you wish for. We could enforce client-side scanning on the OS. Everything that appears on the screen is scanned and reported.

Nope. Criminals can still just build their own devices with their own operating systems. We have existing OS without spying, people have them as ISO on their harddrives. You can't stop criminals from installing an old Lineage OS build.

Legally you can't stop anybody from using encrypted channels if they are motivate unless you go out and erase the knowledge.

Implementing filters that go on all communications is undemocratic. Any future authoritarian government can use the same filter to immediately target their opposition, not just in theory, in practise. We have designed our democracies with division of powers for the simple reason that we have learned through history that giving any single kind of entity that kind of power leads to tyranny. That means whenever we give the government new superpowers we are changing a carefully setup balance. What does the citizen get for that trade? Nothing. If your power only works as long as it is in the hands of the good ones and becomes dystopian once it gets into the hands of the bad guys, maybe that power shouldn't exist.

Since we want to obviously prevent childrem from being sexually abused the best way to start according to most child-protection organizations is to start at the root. That means educating kids early on in child-suitable ways and investing in prevention and psuchological help for potential pedophiles. If children have the possibility to signal such a thing happened to adults or other persons of trust, you don't need mass surveillance.

But my guess is that CSAM is just the symbolic reason, in reality this is meant to do more. It would be perfect to target small movements as they are emerging for example.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#525

Post by senko »

Meanwhile, in one part of the EU (Croatia): urgent tax law change is being considered to allow the tax authorities to demand access (passwords, keys, etc) to any electronic/digital device or service used by a person involved with (owning, operating, or just working in) a business, "to combat tax fraud". No warrants necessary.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#526

Post by tpm »

cirelli94 wrote: post #523
ohman876 wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government A little bit off-topic but so called president of the EU is not elected, nor are the figures in so called EU commission :)

That's not true. They are elected but not directly by the population but by the representative of each state.

They are nominated, not elected. This may vary state by state but in our country there is not election process for them.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#527

Post by tpm »

danielscrubs wrote: post #512
ohman876 wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government A little bit off-topic but so called president of the EU is not elected, nor are the figures in so called EU commission :)

Brexit was an awful thing, BUT it will increase democracy for both parties. EU needs to be made more democratic or we need to severely limit its power, as its original intent, because the current show is just a farce.

Brexit did not and will not 'increase democracy' in any way anywhere.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#528

Post by 1718627440 »

AlexandrB wrote: post #501
1718627440 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oral violence also has consequences. From invoking or reinforcing mental diseases over fear and isolation to blackmail and being socially judged on while being innocent. Do you accept random beatings when people feel like it on the street?

Oral violence is an oxymoron. It's dangerous to conflate words and violence because then words quickly become a justification for violence.

Why? How do you define violence? Harming people? Insults and false accusations can have much greater harm to a life then a broken leg.

> violence because then words quickly become a justification for violence

When you don't have a way to fight back and make something stop, without resorting to physical aggression, then your only way is to punch back. When the legal system allows you to fight back, then you can walk away, knowing you can call your lawyer or the police.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#529

Post by ssdspoimdsjvv »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #398
JohnLocke4 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can't even organize a resistance because all channels of communication are monitored. One of the awful things about this proposed legislation is that what I quoted you saying is not true. Software like PGP is easy to use, and criminals already do. The government has absolutely no possibility of breaking RSA the way things are now, and as such scanning all messages will do nothing other than prove more definitive…

> Software like PGP is easy to use Criminalize encryption. Oh you're using cryptograhy? Well then clearly you are a child molesting, money laundering, drug trafficking terrorist. No need to actually decrypt anything when cryptography is incriminating evidence unto itself. Computers are subversive. Cryptography alone can defeat police, judges, governments and militaries, and computers have democratized access to crypt…

How do you define cryptography? Let's say my files are written in a format that only my software can read. Is it then illegal to distribute said files?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#530

Post by victorbjorklund »

ohman876 wrote: post #510
txrx0000 wrote: post #287

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

> If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government A little bit off-topic but so called president of the EU is not elected, nor are the figures in so called EU commission :)

EU commission president isn’t directly elected, but neither is the US. President. Voter choose electors who then pick the US president. In EU: voters elect national parties that form groups in the Parliament, which then elects the Commission President.
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